IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF GRADY COUNTY STATE OF OKLAHOMA

Transcription

1 Page 1 IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF GRADY COUNTY STATE OF OKLAHOMA ROGER W. HURLBERT d/b/a, ) SAGE INFORMATION SERVICES and ) ROGER W. HURLBERT, ) Individually, ) ) Plaintiff, ) ) -vs- BARI FIRESTONE, ) GRADY COUNTY ASSESSOR, ) ) Defendant. ) ) No. CJ ) DEPOSITION OF GLEN BLOOD TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF IN OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA ON JUNE 17, 2009 CITY REPORTERS, INC. 117 PARK AVENUE, FIRST FLOOR OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA (405) REPORTED BY: JULEE THUMMEL, CSR

2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 DOUGLAS A. WILSON Attorney at Law South Hafner Street Suite B 6 Stillwater, Oklahoma FOR THE DEFENDANT: 9 LESLEY SMITH MARCH Assistant District Attorney 10 Grady County Courthouse Chickasha, Oklahoma FOR THE WITNESS: 13 LARRY D. PATTON Assistant General Counsel 14 Oklahoma Tax Commission First National Center North Robinson Suite Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Also appearing: Bari Firestone 19 Leigh Ann Burton Page 2

3 1 I N D E X 2 Page 3 Direct Examination by Mr. Wilson...5 Cross-Examination by Ms. March Redirect Examination by Mr. Wilson E X H I B I T S Defendant's Answer to Plaintiff's Petition for 10 Declaratory Judgment and Mandatory Injunction Grady County Website Printout Assessment Central Quarterly Printout Page 3

4 1 S T I P U L A T I O N S 2 3 It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between the 4 parties hereto, through their respective attorneys, that 5 the deposition of GLEN BLOOD may be taken on behalf of the 6 Plaintiff, on June 17, 2009, in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, by 7 Julee Thummel, Certified Shorthand Reporter within and for 8 the State of Oklahoma, pursuant to subpoena. 9 It is further stipulated and agreed by and between 10 the parties hereto, through their respective attorneys, 11 that all objections, except as to the form of the question 12 and the responsiveness of the answer, are reserved until 13 the time of trial, at which time they may be made with the 14 same force and effect as if made at the time of the taking 15 of this deposition. 16 * * * * * * * * Page 4

5 1 GLEN BLOOD, 2 of lawful age, being first duly sworn, testified on his 3 oath as follows: 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. WILSON: 6 Q Would you state your full name for the record, 7 please? 8 A Glen Blood. 9 Q Mr. Blood, is it okay if I call you Glen? 10 A That would be fine. 11 Q Okay. Have you ever given your deposition 12 before? 13 A No. 14 Q Okay. One of the unique things about a 15 deposition is that the court reporter to my left and to 16 your right is taking down every word we say. As you can 17 see, as I'm talking I'm making gestures. She can't take 18 that down. And as I gestured, you nodded, and she can't 19 take that down. So in order to get an accurate 20 transcription of your testimony today we need to be oral. 21 Okay? 22 A Okay. 23 Q And in normal conversation it's natural to begin 24 answering a question before the person stops asking the 25 question, because we already know where they're going, but Page 5

6 1 the court reporter can't take down both of us talking at 2 once. So I would ask that even if you know what's coming 3 that you wait until the question has stopped and then you 4 answer it. Okay? 5 A Okay. 6 Q Do you have any questions before we begin? 7 A No. 8 Q Okay. Could you give us a summary of your 9 educational background? 10 A I have a bachelor's degree in ministry. And, of 11 course, a high school education, and various schools that 12 I've attended. I wouldn't attempt to list what they are, 13 just dealing with what I'm dealing with now and other 14 schools that I've been to previously. 15 Q Did you earn any degrees from the other schools 16 that we're talking about? 17 A No. They're, like, seminars, and I probably have 18 a degree from an auto mechanic school back many years ago, 19 a technical school. 20 Q Do you know anything about computers? 21 A Do I know anything about computers? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. Software? Computer software? 25 A Some that I deal with, yes. Page 6

7 1 Q Okay. Let's just take a break here and allow the 2 court reporter to note that we've got a couple of additions 3 to the room now. 4 MS. FIRESTONE: Bari Firestone, Grady County 5 Assessor. 6 MS. BURTON: Leigh Ann Burton, First Deputy. 7 MR. WILSON: Grady County Assessor's Office? 8 MS. BURTON: Yes. 9 Q (By Mr. Wilson) Could you summarize for us how 10 you've gained the bulk of your knowledge about computers 11 and computer software? 12 A What I know, for the most part, I have learned 13 from hands-on, and no formal schooling in it. 14 Q And the hands-on knowledge that you've gained in 15 this area, would that have been while you were working for 16 the State of Oklahoma? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Okay. Could you summarize your work history for 19 us? 20 A Excuse me? 21 Q Could you summarize your work history for us? 22 A I began working for the State of Oklahoma in 23 October of 1990 with the task force that was charged with 24 computerizing the assessor's office. And that's what I've 25 been doing, basically until -- I worked for the task force Page 7

8 1 until its sun set, and then was moved over to the Oklahoma 2 Tax Commission. 3 Q What year would that be? 4 A I'm guessing -- emphasize that. I don't keep 5 dates, but I think 1996 was probably when we moved over 6 there. Maybe a year or two difference there. 7 Q And what's your position been with the OTC since 8 then? 9 A I have been in charge of overseeing the CAMA 10 system that was left from the task force setup. And by 11 "overseeing" I mean being a go-between between the 12 assessor's office and the software company. 13 Q And the software company being A It is Radiant Software. Radiant Software is the 15 name of it. 16 Q And did you first become acquainted with Radiant 17 back in 1990? 18 A In the '90s. '91, I think. 19 Q Okay. 20 A It wasn't named that at that time. 21 Q Did your task force recommend this software for 22 the county assessors' offices in Oklahoma? 23 A It was a bid that went out on bid, and that was 24 the one that the task force and the Assessors Association 25 decided upon from the bids. They won the bid. It was KB Page 8

9 1 Systems at that time. 2 Q Okay. 3 A It's still owned by the same fellow now. 4 Q And would it be fair to say that you sort of have 5 been interfacing between the software company, Radiant 6 Software or its prior names, and the assessors' offices in 7 Oklahoma since that point in time? 8 A Restate your question. 9 Q Okay. After the decision was made to go with the 10 Radiant Software, have you basically been sort of a liaison 11 between Radiant Software and the assessors' offices since 12 that point in time? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. And would your education about the Radiant 15 Software come from the folks at Radiant themselves? 16 A Yes, that and the school of hard knocks. 17 Q Many late hours? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Every now and then, Glen, when you nod, I'm just 20 going to wait. And you've done very good. You recognized 21 I was waiting for an oral response so the court reporter 22 could get that. Thank you. 23 I'm going to mark a document as Exhibit 1 to your 24 deposition and hand it to you. 25 (Exhibit 1 was marked for identification and made a part of Page 9

10 1 the record) 2 It is the Defendant's Answer in this case. And what I 3 would like to direct your attention to is Paragraph No MR. WILSON: Could we go off the record for 5 just a second? 6 MR. PATTON: Okay by me. 7 (Discussion held off the record) 8 MR. WILSON: Let's go back on the record. 9 Q (By Mr. Wilson) Have you had a chance to read 10 Paragraph 5? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. Do you know the digital database that's 13 spoken of in that Paragraph 5? Are you familiar with that? 14 A I'm familiar with the database that they have, 15 yes. 16 Q Okay. Is there anything about the database 17 maintained by the Grady County Assessor that does not fit 18 within the definition in Paragraph 5? 19 A As far as I know, there's not. 20 Q Okay. So Paragraph 5 would accurately depict the 21 database maintained by the Grady County Assessor; correct? 22 MR. PATTON: That was just asked and 23 answered. 24 THE WITNESS: State it again. 25 MR. WILSON: Would you read that back? Page 10

11 1 (Previous question was read back by the Reporter) 2 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 3 Q (By Mr. Wilson) And the only reason I brought 4 this out is because throughout the deposition I'm going to 5 refer to Grady County's Real Property Assessment Database. 6 Paragraph No. 5 is what I'm talking about. 7 A Okay. 8 Q All right? I didn't want there to be any 9 misunderstanding about that. 10 I suspect that the fact finder in this case may have 11 less technical knowledge about computers and computer 12 software than you do, Mr. Blood. Okay? 13 A Okay. 14 Q And I would ask you, if you could, is there an 15 easy way that you could describe for the fact finder what a 16 database is? 17 A A database is data that is recorded so that it 18 can be stored on the computer to be used or worked with. 19 In this case, in the Computer Assisted Mass Appraisal that's what CAMA means. In this case that data is used to 21 appraise property and to find a market value for different 22 types of real estate. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Commercial, residential, agricultural. 25 Q Commercial residential and agricultural? Page 11

12 1 A Commercial, residential, agricultural. 2 Q Add those all together and you get a total number 3 of parcels for a county? 4 A No. There's exempt property that could be 5 included in it. 6 Q Okay. Anything else? 7 A Well, you know, I've been at this 18 years. If 8 you want to -- I don't think we've got time to do that 9 today. 10 Q I'm just saying. 11 A That's basically it. 12 Q Okay. Every parcel, realistic parcel that is, in 13 a county assessor's Real Property Assessment Database is 14 unique; correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And, in fact, once the data is recorded in the 17 database that would be the equivalent of being stored in 18 the database; correct? 19 A Now, that information that is recorded, yes. 20 Q And does the database allow the user of the 21 database to compare unique parcels of real estate based on 22 any number of points of comparison, as long as those points 23 of comparison are part of the database? 24 A Yeah, as long as they're part of the database. 25 Q Okay. So you might be able, for instance, to Page 12

13 1 query the computer to return all of the unique parcels in a 2 given county with a value in excess of a certain dollar; 3 correct? 4 A Yeah, I believe you could do that. 5 Q Or possibly with a size in excess of a certain 6 amount? 7 A Yes, you could do that. 8 Q Okay. But, as I understand it, the information 9 about each parcel of real estate is quite a lot; correct? 10 A Yes. There's a great deal of information. 11 Q So there are at least tens and tens, if not 12 dozens and dozens, of points of comparison? 13 A Yes, there's a lot of ways you can do some 14 comparing. Yes. 15 Q Okay. And it's because of the unique 16 identification number of each real estate parcel that 17 permits the database to allow this comparison to take place 18 without mixing up the data; correct? 19 A Yes. That's a unique identifier. 20 Q Okay. Mr. Blood, I want -- the quickest way, I 21 think, we can get your testimony here today is imagine, if 22 you will, that you are physically present in the Grady 23 County Assessor's Office. Okay? 24 A Okay. 25 Q Have you been there before? Page 13

14 1 A Yes, several times. 2 Q Okay. So you're familiar with it; correct? 3 A Yes. That's been a while since I've been there, 4 though. 5 Q Okay. Could you give us an idea of what a while 6 is? 7 A It would have had to have been, to physically 8 been there, over a year. 9 Q To the best of your knowledge? 10 A To the best of my knowledge. 11 Q Any change in the computer system since the last 12 time you were there? 13 A Yeah, I think so. 14 Q And what is that? 15 A I think they've had some new computers put in, 16 because I've had phone calls as to why something wasn't 17 working and so on. So I'm sure they've added or repaired 18 some or done some things that way. And they've also had a 19 new server put in, I think, since I've been there. 20 Q Any change to the software, the CAMA software? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And what is that change? 23 A We've had table changes to upgrade pricing. 24 We've had -- we have a yearly update we do for table 25 updates. Page 14

15 1 Q Okay. 2 A Within the last year we've added the capability 3 of pictures to Property Record Card. I don't know that 4 that data is in, but that capability is there now. 5 Q But the changes that you're talking about occur 6 annually, except the data cards? The changes to the 7 factors, that I take it are multipliers, are done on a 8 yearly basis or how often is that done? 9 A On a yearly basis we send out some personal 10 property stuff, not real estate, but personal property 11 stuff. And we also place in those tables some yearly 12 changes, as far as the date changes in some of those 13 tables, so that we go to the new year and everything. We 14 put that out there and make it available for the assessor 15 to change them, or if we ask them to assess them in getting 16 that in place, we do that for them. And as far as ongoing 17 on the CAMA system, there are bugs that are worked out that 18 we find and they're taken care of. If there's a 19 legislative law passed or something, that means that we 20 have to make a change in that software to meet State 21 standards. We do that. That type of thing. 22 Q Are you talking about changes to the variables in 23 the software? 24 A Not really, no. Well, let me ask you this? What 25 do you mean by variables? You know, I mean, there's all Page 15

16 1 kinds of variables. 2 A Well, if the software provides that the value of 3 X is to be multiplied by a factor of -- and then there is a 4 variable factor there that changes every year, I would 5 refer to that as a variable. 6 A On real estate, we have a -- we have where we 7 usually change every four years the -- we check with the -- 8 I'm trying to think of the name of the company now that we 9 have a licensing agreement with to -- Marshall & Swift. 10 Real estate appraisals information that gives us the local 11 market adjustment factors. We usually -- we usually do 12 that every four years. 13 Q But you do that by getting into the software, 14 going to where that factor is within the software program 15 and updating it; correct? 16 A Within the table that's in the software program. 17 Q Yes. 18 A Okay. 19 Q Any of the changes we're talking about, do these 20 affect the way that you make a copy of that database? 21 A Affect the way you make a copy? It would affect 22 the copy but not the way you make a copy of it. 23 Q I'm going to ask the question again, just so we 24 get a clear response. Any of the changes that you've 25 mentioned to the software since you've last been out there, Page 16

17 1 do they make a change to the methodology used to make a 2 copy of that database? 3 A Some of the enhancements would. 4 Q Explain. 5 A Well, within the last two years -- 6 Q Let me stop you for a moment, and let's just go 7 back to the year that you were out -- you said you were 8 last out there a year, so let's not go beyond that. 9 A Okay. 10 Q I'm just trying to establish you're familiar with 11 the software out there and the way it works and that A Okay. The software has been undergoing a change 13 to reproduce a Property Record Card that will have a photo 14 along with it if there is a photo available, and it will 15 put it out in a different format. But I say that and it's 16 not quite finished yet, it's a work in progress. And so 17 there's bugs in it, and in our testing we found that we 18 can't get that particular Property Record Card out of the 19 system smoothly yet. And so that's a work in progress 20 that's going on. In other words, our batch that would take 21 and get all of those out for us at one time is not -- it 22 goes so far and then it blows up. And we would hope to see 23 the software company -- the software company hopes to see 24 that fixed probably by the first of next year, where that 25 particular thing can be taken out of the system. Page 17

18 1 Q Is the only thing that's affected by that in 2 terms of the -- strike that. So when you want to make a -- 3 strike that. Let's go back out to the year or so ago you 4 were at the Grady County. Okay. There was a process that 5 you would use to make a copy of Grady County's Real 6 Property Assessment Database; correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Is that process different as we sit here today? 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. Let's go back to my hypothetical where 11 you're out at the office in Grady County. Okay? 12 A Okay. 13 Q I'm going to limit the hypothetical to the last 14 year that you're familiar with. Okay? You need to answer 15 orally. 16 A Yes. Okay. 17 Q Someone comes up to the counter, they ask for an 18 electronic copy of Grady County's Real Property Assessment 19 Database, and at the time the assessor is very busy. She 20 asks you to make the copy and you agree to do so. Could 21 you, please, walk us through the steps that you would take 22 to make a copy of Grady County's Real Property Assessment 23 Database? 24 A Well, the number one standard operating procedure 25 would be that everyone would have to be out of the system Page 18

19 1 to make that copy, because if they were in you could 2 corrupt the data or you could miss the parcels that they 3 were in. 4 Q Where is the database physically present? 5 A It's on a server. 6 Q Where? In Grady County or somewhere else? 7 A It's in Grady County. Grady County Courthouse is 8 where it's located. 9 Q Okay. And that server and that database could be 10 configured to be a stand-alone computer; correct? 11 A That server and that database as a stand-alone? 12 Q Well, let me -- that was a very bad question. 13 Let me reword it. The database exists in the server which 14 makes it available to every computer connected to this 15 server; correct? 16 A That's correct. No. I'll take that back. 17 Strike that. No. Because every computer that's connected 18 to that server has the rights to access the CAMA system. 19 There are other systems on that server and I'm not sure 20 what rights each one of them would have. There's probably 21 a mapping system on there. There's a what we call an AA 22 system, an Assessment Administration System. And as far as 23 the rights go at this point in time, I'm not familiar with 24 who's got what rights and so on. 25 Q Okay. So let me see if I can rephrase the Page 19

20 1 question. The database -- well, excuse me. Grady County's 2 Real Property Assessment Database exists in a server in the 3 Grady County Assessor's Office? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And it is made available to every computer 6 connected to that server which also has the rights to 7 access that database; correct? 8 A That would be correct. 9 Q Okay. Do you know how many computers exist in 10 Grady County's Assessor's Office? 11 A I would be guessing if I tried to tell you that 12 at this point in time. 13 Q Okay. Let's assume for a moment the server is 14 connected to 12 computers. All 12 computers have rights to 15 access the database. With this Radiant CAMA software, can 16 all of the computers access the database at the same time? 17 A Yes, that's correct. 18 Q Okay. Based upon your 19 years of being involved 19 with the assessor's office, is everyone in the assessor's 20 office manipulating in some way the database, lawfully, 21 pursuant to the rights they're granted, throughout the 22 working day or are there just some workers accessing the 23 database throughout the working day, not all workers? Do 24 you know which it is? 25 A It would vary. Page 20

21 1 Q The number of workers? 2 A The number of workers that work. 3 Q I understand that. But I understand some workers 4 are out in the field. 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Would they be accessing the database out in the 7 field? 8 A No. 9 Q Are there other duties that people who work in a 10 county assessor's office do that don't involve accessing 11 the database or is that the sole duty? 12 A That would depend upon the county office. They 13 divide that workload up differently in each county. 14 There's 77 counties in this state, and the CAMA software is 15 only -- that particular system is working in or of the counties at this point in time. 17 Q And does it work the same way in every county? 18 A The system? 19 Q Yes, sir. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. A county like Grady County that has employees, would you expect all 12 of those employees to be 23 accessing the database all day long, five days a week, weeks a year? 25 A That would -- they could be hooked to it and Page 21

22 1 computers running, but I don't think every one of them is 2 going to be on it at the same time accessing it. 3 Q In fact, you could even, through administrative 4 rights, restrict access to just one computer; correct? 5 A That I don't know. 6 Q Didn't you just tell me that accessing the 7 database through the server depended upon what rights were 8 granted? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Okay. 11 A But I have no rights or authority over the 12 server, so I don't know what you can do there. The only 13 rights I have Q You don't know whether or not those rights to 15 access the database can be turned off or turned on? 16 A I would assume -- assumption -- okay -- that they 17 could, but I couldn't do it. 18 Q Okay. Have you ever seen any that couldn't? 19 A Huh? 20 Q Have you ever seen any software as important as a 21 county assessor's property assessment database that you 22 couldn't restrict access to it? 23 A Myself, personally? 24 Q Yes, sir. 25 A That I couldn't restrict it? Page 22

23 1 Q No. That anyone couldn't? 2 A The person that has those rights -- 3 Q That the person would design something that is 4 important to just allow carte blanche access? Have you 5 ever seen software like that? 6 A No. 7 Q So more than likely you can restrict access; 8 correct? 9 A Not me, myself. 10 Q You know, the personal pronoun you is known as 11 soft, so let me use it differently. So more than likely a 12 person who knew how could restrict access to that database 13 to just one computer; correct? 14 A Correct. 15 Q Okay. And do some counties have two servers? 16 A Yeah, there's some that do. 17 Q Okay. And would it be possible to place the CAMA 18 database on one server but not on the other? 19 A I would assume that would be possible. 20 Q And it would follow, then, that the number of 21 people who can access Grady County's Real Property 22 Assessment Database at any given point in time is 23 controlled by the individual who constructs the computer 24 network and who sets the administrative rights of each 25 user; correct? Page 23

24 1 A That's correct. 2 Q Do you know who that is? 3 A Do I know who that is? 4 Q Yes, sir. 5 A It would be probably OSU CCAP Group. 6 Q A Mr. Warren? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. Now, getting back to where we were. When 9 you agree to make the copy of the assessor's database for 10 the person who's requested it, you can't just start copying 11 it, because someone might be in the database and that would 12 cause a serious problem; correct? 13 A That would cause a serious problem. 14 Q Might or might not? 15 A No. There's the possibility. 16 Q Yeah. And I would think significant enough that 17 would be a rule; correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Okay. So the first thing you're going to do is 20 make sure that no one is in the database at that time; 21 correct? 22 A That would be correct. 23 Q If they are in the database at that time you're 24 going to wait until they're done; correct? 25 A That would be correct. Page 24

25 1 Q Okay. When no one else is using that database 2 then you can make the copy, but not before then; correct? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q So what do you -- let's assume that has happened, 5 whether you stayed late, whether it's lunch, whether you 6 came in early the next day, whatever it is. 7 A Okay. 8 Q All right. You're now alone. What do you do? 9 A Well, to make a copy of the database for the 10 assessor, if she requested me do that Q Well, again, the hypothetical is someone comes to 12 the counter. 13 A Uh-huh. 14 Q And there's no debate -- let's go off the record 15 for a second. 16 (Discussion held off the record) 17 MR. WILSON: Back on the record. 18 Q (By Mr. Wilson) So Mr. Blood, let's go back to 19 our hypothetical. Someone comes in and asks for a copy of 20 Grady County's Real Property Assessment Database. The 21 assessor is too busy and says "Glen, will you do it for 22 me?" You say, "Hey, no problem. I'm just going to wait 23 until everybody gets off the database so I make sure 24 nothing gets skewed up in there." 25 A Okay. Page 25

26 1 Q What do you do next? 2 A Well, my first question is -- because these 3 copies that people are getting -- 4 Q Okay. This is just one copy, though. 5 A Yeah, but I'm saying those people come in and 6 they may come in and say, "Give me all your database." 7 Q It's a request for the entire database, but it 8 doesn't have anything to do with the Mapping GIS-type 9 stuff. It's just the AA and the CAMA. 10 A Well Q They want the whole thing. 12 A I could not -- I couldn't copy the AA. I'm not 13 familiar with it. At one time I was, but programs have 14 changed, and they have not been as informative to us as when this started out we had a server that could -- we had 16 enough information we could do that. Right now the AA, I 17 would hate to answer for them as to how to do that. Okay? 18 There's a procedure and stuff and I'm not even familiar 19 with it. 20 Q Is the -- and when we talk about AA, that's the 21 Administrative Assessment Database; correct? 22 A Correct. 23 Q Again, another database? 24 A Another database, correct. 25 Q Am I correct that both the AA and the CAMA files Page 26

27 1 link up based upon that unique parcel identifier? 2 A Yes, they do. But you're saying John Q. Public 3 comes in and asks and he says, "I want this information." 4 Okay? Am I understanding your question. 5 Q Yes, sir. Under the Open Records Act, the 6 government of the people by the people for the people. 7 A Where's that government at? 8 Q I mean, after Drew Edmondson issued his opinion that every county assessor had to deliver it up at 10 cost, the Oklahoma Tax Commission gets credit, sends a copy 11 of that attorney general's opinion to every tax assessor in 12 the state. 13 A Okay. 14 Q But I think we, as the State of Oklahoma, believe 15 in that. It begins government is inherent in the people. 16 A Okay. 17 Q The people. 18 MR. PATTON: That was a nice statement, but 19 what's the question? 20 MR. WILSON: I was just answering his. He 21 gave me an opportunity. 22 THE WITNESS: But what I'm saying to you is 23 the CAMA system, I can copy those files, database files. 24 Q (By Mr. Wilson) Okay. What I want you to do, 25 though, is tell me what you're going to do after everyone Page 27

28 1 is off the system. Physically walk me through it. What's 2 it take to copy the CAMA database? I know that when I copy 3 a database on a CD or DVD, I press a button that says 4 "Copy" and then I wait until it's finished and it's ready. 5 I'm asking you what are the physical steps that you take to 6 make a copy of Grady County's Real Property Assessment 7 Database? 8 MR. PATTON: I think the problem is he's 9 testified that he couldn't copy the AA. 10 MR. WILSON: I know he has. 11 MR. PATTON: So I think if you'll rephrase 12 the question and say MR. WILSON: Let me limit it to CAMA. 14 THE WITNESS: The problem is that if I made 15 you a copy of the database as you're saying, just a copy of 16 the database Q (By Mr. Wilson) Yes, sir. 18 A -- the file structure is such in the system that 19 if you just had a copy of it, unless you had a program to 20 read that it wouldn't -- it wouldn't -- just making a copy 21 of it would not be of much value to you. 22 Q Assume my client either has a program to read it 23 or has the technicians available to him to create it. 24 A Okay. 25 Q Now can you answer the question? Page 28

29 1 A If that was the type of copy or the type of 2 information you were wanting, then I would -- the quickest 3 way I would do it would just go in and make a copy of it to 4 a CD. I could go to the directory and highlight those 5 files in the database and copy them to the disc. 6 Q When you say "directory" are you talking about 7 what most of us knows as a Windows-based operating system 8 directory? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. You highlight the file and press "Copy;" 11 correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q And that can be copied to a CD? 14 A I think so, depending on how much -- how big 15 their data files are. It might take two. 16 Q Could it be copied to a DVD? 17 A Probably. 18 Q How much time are we talking about? A couple of 19 days? 20 A No. We're talking -- and this would be a guess 21 just based upon the proximate parcels that Grady County 22 has. 23 Q And your 16 years worth of -- or more than that years. 25 A But I was going to say -- it's a guess, but I Page 29

30 1 would say that probably 15 to 30 minutes. 2 Q 15 to 30 minutes? 3 A And that's just for a straight copy of the files 4 as they are. 5 Q Okay. And if at the time that you knew how to 6 copy the AA files -- 7 A Huh? 8 Q At the time that you knew how to copy the AA 9 files A Uh-huh. 11 Q -- how did you do that? 12 A How did I do that? 13 Q Was it the same way? 14 A Yes, basically back then. 15 Q They, too, at that time were on a Windows-based 16 operating system? 17 A No, that was back under a DOS system. 18 Q Okay. Under MS-DOS? 19 A Uh-huh. 20 Q But, again, through a command-line argument, you 21 would type in "Copy" and it would copy it on to a disc; 22 correct? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q Do you know whether or not the AA system used by 25 Grady County is now on a Windows-based operating system? Page 30

31 1 A Yes, they should be. 2 Q Do you have any reason to believe that making a 3 copy of the AA database would be different in methodology 4 than the way you make a copy of the CAMA database? 5 A I would hate to speak for them. 6 Q Sir, I'm asking you if you have any reason to 7 believe that the Windows -- that the AA database running on 8 the Windows operating system would require a different 9 technique to copy onto a CD than the CAMA database running 10 on the Windows-based operating system? Is there a reason? 11 And if there is, share it with us. 12 A I would be guessing. 13 Q I don't want you to guess. Now, I asked do you 14 have any reason -- reason implies at least some rational A As far as I could see, looking at the data 16 structure and stuff, you could probably copy that in the 17 very form that it is, like you would the CAMA system. 18 Q And what about time? 19 A It would be faster than the CAMA system. 20 Q Quite a bit smaller file; correct? 21 A Should be, yes. 22 Q And how many people would you need to assist you 23 in this task of copying the CAMA file onto a DVD? 24 A To assist me? 25 Q Yes, sir. Page 31

32 1 A I wouldn't need anybody. 2 Q Okay. Is it a one-person job? 3 A To do the actual copying? 4 Q Yes, sir. 5 A Yeah, if everybody is off the system, yes, it is. 6 Q Okay. Could you tell me what sort of search you 7 would have to conduct, if any, in order to copy the CAMA 8 database? 9 A What sort of search? 10 Q Yes, sir. Do you need to go look for it 11 somewhere? 12 A You go to the G drive on the server. 13 Q It's basically the database coupled with the AA 14 database and mapping databases that the assessors work with 15 everyday; correct? 16 A Yeah, they work with it everyday. 17 Q It's sitting right there in their office; right? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Sitting right there at their computer; correct? 20 A Correct. 21 Q So when the guy at the counter asks for it, you 22 just walk over to the computer, if everyone is off the 23 system, and press the copy button; correct? As long as the 24 correct file is highlighted? 25 A That would make a copy. Page 32

33 1 Q Okay. Have you ever bought any DVDs lately or 2 CDs, blank? 3 A Have I ever bought any? 4 Q Lately? 5 A Lately? Yeah. 6 Q Okay. Is the cost of a typical blank DVD, does 7 it exceed $5? 8 A I wouldn't pay that much for one. 9 Q How much would you pay for one? 10 A I don't know what they would be apiece, but I 11 would give $14 for, I think, 30 of them. 12 Q Okay. 13 A And that's too much, but the kind I buy that's 14 what I have to pay for them. 15 Q When an employee of the Grady County Assessor's 16 Office makes a copy of Grady County's Real Property 17 Assessment Database, are you aware of any access or 18 processing charges incurred by the assessor's office as a 19 result of making that copy? And I can have the court 20 reporter read that back if you would like. 21 A I really couldn't answer that. 22 Q Okay. I'm asking you if you're aware. 23 A I'm aware that there is a fee that has been set 24 up by the County Assessors Association. 25 Q Is that a fee charged to the assessor's office? Page 33

34 1 A Is that a fee charged to the assessor's office? 2 Q Yes. 3 A No. That's a fee for requesting information. 4 Q We just talked about cost of materials, the DVD. 5 Now I'm looking at other costs that might be involved. 6 Okay? 7 A Okay. 8 Q So there's costs incurred by the assessor's 9 office? 10 A Yes, correct. 11 Q Are you aware of any access or processing charges 12 imposed on the Grady County Assessor's Office when they 13 make a copy of their CAMA database? 14 A I'm not aware of any that's imposed on them other 15 than gathering the data and the time and the gas and 16 mileage for those field people that you talked about 17 earlier being out there and all of this cost to gather that 18 information. 19 Q I understand A That's the cost that's imposed on them. 21 Q But the assessor's office is required to do its 22 job every year regardless of whether anyone requests a copy 23 of the database; correct? 24 A Correct. 25 Q So it's a cost that's incurred nonetheless; Page 34

35 1 correct? Going out there and making the visual 2 inspections? 3 A It's a cost incurred by them, yes. 4 Q Okay. Would they incur that cost if no one 5 requested a copy of the database? 6 MS. MARCH: I'm going to object to that. I 7 don't understand that question and I'm not sure how he can 8 understand it. It was convoluted and confusing, so we 9 request that it somehow be reworded. 10 MR. WILSON: I would be happy to. 11 Q (By Mr. Wilson) If no one in any given year 12 requests a copy of Grady County's Real Property Assessment 13 Database, is the county assessor relieved of the duty to 14 conduct its visual inspections of property within the 15 county for that year? 16 A Not that I know of. 17 Q Not that I know of, either. 18 Assuming that the cost of materials, the DVD, is $ we'll take the high end and make it 30 over 15 or even 2 20 and a quarter if need be or Can you think of any 21 other cost other than the 15 to 30 minutes of personnel use 22 to make that copy incurred by the county assessor in making 23 a copy of the Grady County Real Property Assessment 24 Database? 25 A No, not that I would know of. Page 35

36 1 MR. WILSON: I'm done with that line of 2 questioning. I've got a couple of more questions where I'm 3 just going to shift the facts a little bit. Could we take 4 a two-minute break? 5 MS. MARCH: Sure. 6 MR. PATTON: Sure. 7 MR. WILSON: Okay. 8 (Short Break) 9 Q (By Mr. Wilson) Mr. Blood, we're back on the 10 record. Do you recognize you're still under oath? 11 A I'm sorry? 12 Q You recognize you're still under oath? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. What I would like to do now is to go back 15 to the same scenario we presented earlier with just a 16 couple of changes. Okay. Now the person walking up to the 17 counter, he already has gotten a complete database a while 18 back, say, a couple of months ago. And what he asks for is 19 an update. "Would you, please, give me an update of Grady 20 county's Real Property Assessment Database since the last 21 time I got it?" So he's just looking for those records, 22 those parcel ID numbers, that have had some change to them 23 since that point in time. Okay? 24 A Okay. 25 Q Now, I suspect you still need everyone to be out Page 36

37 1 of the database; correct -- 2 A That's correct. 3 Q -- before you're going to do anything to it. 4 Now, once we are out and you're alone there with the 5 database, how do you go about making a copy of an update, a 6 monthly update? 7 A I would just copy them all over again. 8 Q Would that be the easiest? 9 A That would be the simplest. Yes. 10 Q I take it you could also run a query regarding 11 when a particular parcel ID number was last modified, and 12 then you would only have to copy the new ones. Am I wrong 13 or right? 14 A You could make a query on certain information 15 within the database and get that information on those 16 particular parcels, but it would not be in the database 17 format, it would be in an old DOS program called 18 Intelligent Query. And it would not give you the complete 19 database on that. 20 Q Would it give you all of the unique parcels that 21 have been modified? 22 A Not all of the information, but partially, 23 because it is limited on what it can query out of there 24 versus making a straight copy. 25 Q Has -- are you familiar with the practice of some Page 37

38 1 county assessors of updating someone's duplicate copy of 2 the county's property assessment database? 3 A Restate your question or say it again. 4 Q Have you ever -- are you familiar with the 5 practice of some county assessors, to accommodate customers 6 requesting copies of the database, by charging them for an 7 update price as opposed to charging them for a new database 8 each time? 9 A Yeah, there's some of that that happens. 10 Q Is it your opinion that what the customer 11 receives is actually a new database copy? 12 A I assume that, or a backup file of that, which is 13 a flat file. 14 Q As opposed to A As opposed to the index and DAT file that we went 16 through this scenario before about. 17 Q Would it take more or less time to copy the flat 18 file? 19 A It would take more because of the time that it 20 takes to flatten it out and then copy it. 21 Q So, based purely on economics, it makes more 22 sense for the assessor's office, if they're going to update 23 someone's duplicate copy of their database, to just burn 24 another CD of what's on their database now; correct? Just 25 from an economic viewpoint? Page 38

39 1 A From the assessor's standpoint? 2 Q Yes, sir. 3 A That would be the simplest and least expensive 4 way for them to do it. 5 Q And would cause less headaches for the person who 6 received it; correct? 7 A No. 8 Q Well, if there was a query run, they wouldn't get 9 all of the changes; correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q Okay. And if they get a flat file, as opposed to 12 what they've been getting, they're going to have to handle 13 it differently; correct, to integrate it with what they 14 have now? 15 A Yeah, if they got it that way to start with. But 16 you changed on me from the assessor to the person receiving 17 it. The person receiving it, if they got it in the DAT and 18 the index file, I don't know what they did with it after 19 that. They either got a program that could read it or they 20 had to manipulate it to get it in a form, and how that 21 manipulated that, I don't know. 22 Q But they would have to manipulate the flat file 23 differently to be able to update what they already have; 24 correct? 25 A That's correct. Page 39

40 1 Q Purely based on economics, if the Grady County 2 Assessor makes a duplicate copy of Grady County's Real 3 Property Assessment Database for Customer 1, and when 4 Customer 2 shows up she goes to the trouble to actually 5 create an update for Customer 2, as opposed to an exact 6 duplicate, from a purely economic standpoint should 7 Customer 2's update cost more than Customer 1's duplicate, 8 based upon cost of materials and cost of labor? 9 A I wouldn't know how to answer that. 10 Q Why not? 11 A Why not? Well, I haven't, myself, personally 12 done an update and took -- I don't know. 13 Q Let me walk you through it piece by piece what 14 you've already testified to. Okay? 15 A Okay. 16 MS. MARCH: I'm going to object to that. I 17 believe his answer stands alone. He says, "I don't believe 18 I can tell you that." 19 MR. WILSON: All right. 20 Q (By Mr. Wilson) You've testified already that to 21 copy a flat file takes longer than to copy the index and 22 DAT file; correct? 23 A It takes longer because you back up the file 24 first and then you copy it. 25 Q And you've testified that if all you do is a Page 40

41 1 query for the modified files since the last time the 2 customer receives something -- which is only partially 3 what's been requested; correct? 4 A That would be based upon what the customer's 5 requesting. I mean, if he requests that he wants 6 everything, then parts of that information are not going to 7 be available. 8 MR. WILSON: I may have to make a phone call 9 and postpone something. This could be a while. Does 10 someone have the time? 11 MR. PATTON: The time is 2: THE WITNESS: But the update process that 13 you talk about, the customer wanting a portion of it, I 14 have personally not gone through that process for people. 15 Okay? So I don't know how Q Have you witnessed it done? 17 A No, I haven't witnessed it Q Have you ever told anybody to do it? 19 MR. PATTON: Let him finish his answer. 20 MR. WILSON: Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. 21 THE WITNESS: I have not witnessed it done 22 and I haven't done one. So there are vendors out there 23 that ask for those things and they get it, but I don't know 24 the workings of how they do it. Some of those vendors set 25 up programs to pull down what they need. Page 41

42 1 Q (By Mr. Wilson) And you said that the updated 2 file would be in an MS-DOS format? 3 A The updated file. 4 Q If the request is made for a monthly update, as 5 opposed to the entire database, it would be -- 6 A It would be under a -- under this old program, IQ 7 we call it. It would be in an ASCII format, fixed ASCII 8 format. 9 Q But that's where you query the database to 10 actually do a search for things that have been modified; 11 correct? 12 A That would be correct. 13 Q Okay. And someone who requests the entire 14 database, there's no search required; correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q So which takes longer? Fulfilling the request 17 for the update by providing them the queried version or 18 fulfilling the request for the entire database copy? 19 A From the assessor's standpoint it would be faster 20 for them just to copy the files. 21 Q In their entirety? 22 A Well, yes, to get all of the information that you 23 had got previously, yes. 24 Q So in both instances, whether the update involves 25 a flat file or whether the update involves the query Page 42

43 1 process, that update, if they do it like an update, is 2 going to take more man hours than simply duplicating the 3 database; correct? 4 A From the assessor's standpoint, yes. 5 Q Are you familiar with VLS? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Who are they? 8 A Visual Leasing. 9 Q Is that Visual Lease Services? 10 A Yes. I believe Visual Leasing Services. 11 Q Are they -- what's their business? 12 A They do appraisals, they appraise oil field 13 equipment, all kinds of information. 14 MR. WILSON: I apologize that I only have 15 one copy of this. I'm going to have it marked and allow it 16 to be passed around until everybody is satisfied about what 17 we're talking about. 18 Q (By Mr. Wilson) Mr. Blood, let me hand you 19 what's been marked as Exhibit 2 and ask, if you would, to 20 familiarize yourself with that document, as well as allow 21 your Counsel and Counsel for Ms. Firestone to see that 22 document, as well, before I ask any more questions. 23 (Exhibit 2 was marked for identification and made a part of 24 the record) 25 I would just ask, have you ever seen a representation Page 43

44 1 on the Internet resembling Exhibit 2? 2 A Have I? 3 Q Yes, sir. 4 A No. 5 Q Is it completely foreign to you? 6 A Yeah. I haven't viewed that. 7 Q Okay. 8 MR. WILSON: Since the witness has no 9 knowledge of Exhibit 2, I would request to withdraw that 10 from the record, if there's no objection. 11 MS. MARCH: We object. We would request 12 that it be included with the record. 13 MR. WILSON: Okay. Good enough. 14 Q (By Mr. Wilson) Let me hand you what's been 15 marked as Exhibit 3, Mr. Blood, and take a look through 16 that document, especially at the top of what would be Page 17 2, I guess, the top left corner. 18 (Exhibit 3 was marked for identification and made a part of 19 the record) 20 There is an article by Tracy Leniger. Do you know who 21 she is? 22 A The name doesn't ring a bell with me right now. 23 Q Okay. Would you please slide your copy of 24 Exhibit 3 down to Counsel? Because yours contains a 25 highlight that I don't think copied on the photocopies, and Page 44

45 1 I would like Counsel to see the highlight that we're going 2 to talk about. 3 When you read the highlighted portion of Page 2 there, 4 which speaks about royalty checks being paid, are you -- 5 does that sound like a practice that you've ever heard of? 6 MS. MARCH: Objection. Counsel, just for 7 purposes of the record, I think if we're going to refer to 8 the highlighted section we request that that be read into 9 the record just so that we can avoid any confusion at a 10 later date. 11 Q (By Mr. Wilson) Do you want to go ahead and read 12 the highlighted portion into the record? 13 MS. MARCH: I'm sorry, Counsel, I didn't 14 hear that. 15 Q (By Mr. Wilson) Mr. Blood? 16 A You want me to? 17 Q Yes. Just read the highlighted portion into the 18 record. 19 A "Those counties that promote their county's 20 website have the highest members in the state and receive 21 higher paying royalty checks. The counties" -- I've got to 22 skip down now. "I receive countless incoming calls when 23 potential customers tell me they were referred by the 24 assessor's office. That tells me that Y-O-U are promoting 25 your county's website and want to increase your royalty Page 45

46 1 check." 2 Q Are you aware of the practice of vendors paying 3 money to counties for promoting the vendor's website? 4 A I'm aware that vendors give the county a, I 5 guess, percentage of what they sell or something. I'm not 6 sure -- I'm not sure of how that works. I'm just not that 7 familiar with it. I'm not -- I know that VLS had done 8 something to help the assessors if they would provide them 9 with information that they requested, but I don't know what 10 that entails or anything about it other than that. 11 Q Okay. 12 A And that's -- I assume that's a contract or 13 something that's worked out between the assessor and the 14 vendor. 15 Q Do you know how many other vendors have similar 16 agreements with the assessors? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know if any do? 19 A I know there was a vendor at -- well, I wouldn't 20 call it a vendor -- OU at one time -- I don't know whether 21 they're still doing it -- that was receiving data and 22 having it put on a website for Garfield County. But I 23 believe that Garfield County Assessor paid to have that set 24 up, paid the vendor so much to set that website up. But I 25 can't testify to that. That's the depth of my knowledge. Page 46

47 1 Q Are you aware of any other instances in which 2 vendors are paying royalty checks to county assessors to 3 promote their websites? 4 A I'm not aware of any royalty checks. 5 Q Okay. Would you read that first sentence again 6 that's highlighted? 7 A "Those counties that promote their county's" -- 8 "those counties that promote their county's website have 9 the highest members in the state and receive higher paying 10 royalty checks." 11 Q And I'll just tell you that -- does everyone else 12 read "members" as "numbers"? 13 MR. PATTON: It's actually "numbers." It's 14 just a bad print. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 16 MR. WILSON: My eyesight is bad, too, so I 17 was not willing to correct him on that. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. My mistake. 19 Q (By Mr. Wilson) Are you aware of any other 20 situations in which vendors are paying county assessors 21 royalty checks to promote the vendor's website? 22 A Not that I -- I don't know what goes on between 23 the county and the venders. They're vendors and they 24 contract to the counties, and that's an agreement and 25 contract between them. Page 47

48 1 Q Do you know where those royalty checks are 2 deposited? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you know where I could find copies of the 5 contracts between the vendors and the county assessors, 6 every one of them, every 77 counties? 7 A Do I know? 8 Q Yes. 9 A No. I'm not familiar with that information. 10 Q Would all counties have such contracts? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Do you know whether or not the Oklahoma Tax 13 Commission has any contracts with vendors regarding county 14 assessors or ad valorem tax? 15 A We have a contract with the software that we 16 provide for those 59 or 60 counties. And that was a result 17 of the task force that I was in years ago. 18 MR. WILSON: I don't have any further 19 questions. So as far as my questioning of you is 20 concerned, I'm done. But your Counsel or Defendant's 21 Counsel might have some questions. 22 MR. PATTON: We're not a party to this 23 proceeding. I'm just here to witness it. 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION 25 BY MS. MARCH: Page 48

49 1 Q Mr. Blood, we met before the deposition started. 2 My name is Lesley March. I'm the Assistant District 3 Attorney in Grady County and I represent Bari Firestone, 4 our county assessor. So I just have some questions to 5 follow up what Counsel has asked you. 6 A Okay. 7 Q As a criminal prosecutor, some of this is very 8 new to me. So bear with me if I'm not on the same wave 9 length as you are, computer-wise. 10 A Okay. 11 Q I'm going to try to follow up on Counsel's 12 questions. From what I understand of your testimony, you 13 said that in 1990 the State began a task force which was 14 set up regarding computerizing the county assessors' 15 offices in all 77 counties; is that correct? 16 MR. WILSON: Objection. Leading. You can 17 go ahead and answer. If I don't get in a form objection 18 today, I believe I waive it. 19 MR. PATTON: It's cross-examination. I 20 believe I'm going to be entitled to lead. He's your 21 witness. He's not my witness, Counsel. But I believe 22 objections are taken down for the record and the Judges can 23 deal with it later. 24 MR. WILSON: I'm going to just say 25 "Objection" and then what it is and then leave it alone, Page 49

50 1 but you can go ahead and answer the question. 2 Q (By Ms. March) Mr. Blood, is that correct that 3 when you first began in this feature it was because you 4 were appointed to the task force, and the purpose of the 5 task force was to -- 6 MR. WILSON: Objection. Leading. 7 THE WITNESS: I was hired by the task force 8 to help put a computer system into the county assessors' 9 offices. 10 Q (By Ms. March) Was that for each of the counties? 12 A Yes. We put computer equipment -- well, let me 13 back up. I guess I'll have to say strike that. We there were some counties grandfathered in, and there were counties and in Oklahoma county and Tulsa county, so 16 approximately 17 counties that were grandfathered in. And 17 Grady County, to begin with, was grandfathered in -- part 18 of their system was grandfathered in. And then the data 19 was converted over to the current CAMA system somewhere in 20 the process or the beginning process. 21 Q When you became a part of the task force, what 22 training or experience did you have that caused you to be a 23 desirable employee to work on this task force, considering 24 computers that many years ago were a lot different than 25 now? Page 50

51 1 MR. WILSON: Objection. Assumes facts not 2 in evidence. Go ahead and answer it. 3 Q (By Ms. March) Would you agree with me computer 4 systems are a lot different now than they were in 1990? 5 A Yes, I would. 6 Q Then to follow up on my original question, what 7 did you bring to the table? Why did they request your -- 8 MR. WILSON: Objection. Calls for 9 speculation. Go ahead and answer. 10 THE WITNESS: The reason they hired me Q (By Ms. March) Let me just rephrase. I'm not 12 asking for any speculation. I'm sure you know why they 13 hired you, and that's my question. 14 MR. WILSON: Same objection. 15 Q (By Ms. March) Thank you, Mr. Blood. Go ahead 16 and answer. 17 A The reason they hired me was that I had seven 18 years, seven and a half years approximately, working for 19 Blaine County doing fieldwork, handling protests, just 20 generally county assessor work, worked in the county 21 assessor's office. 22 Q So it was based upon your knowledge of the county 23 assessor's office in Blaine County? 24 MR. WILSON: Objection as leading. 25 MS. MARCH: Counsel, this -- I'm a State Page 51

52 1 employee. I can be here all night. It matters not to me. 2 This is going to be very uncomfortable for the person 3 you've requested to depose. I'm here forever. I'm a 4 prosecutor, and I don't get tired, so if you want to keep 5 this up, Counsel, we'll just keep it up. 6 MR. WILSON: The ad valorem tax division of 7 which -- 8 MS. MARCH: You can ask your questions when 9 I finish. Other than an objection, we don't need a sermon 10 from you or a big statement on the record. I'm entitled to 11 ask my questions. What my point is is you can make this 12 hard or you can make it easy. I'm not going anywhere. 13 MR. WILSON: And I'm entitled to ask the 14 witness just to pause a heartbeat before he answered if I 15 have an objection. I'm entitled to get that on the record 16 and the court reporter shouldn't have to listen to us talk 17 over one another. Okay? 18 MS. MARCH: And, Counsel, I would advise you 19 that while I'm asking my questions, you do not have a right 20 to advise the witness of anything. On Direct Examination 21 you are taking the deposition. You've already advised 22 Mr. Blood of the ground rules. For you to do anything 23 further, I believe, is an attempt to bully him and an 24 attempt to prolong this matter, which is totally 25 unnecessary. There's no reason to be difficult. I have Page 52

53 1 very simple questions to answer. I think we've all been 2 polite. I held back on my objections. We would just 3 request that you do the same thing. This is just a fact 4 finding mission based upon your questions that you've posed 5 to Mr. Blood. 6 MR. WILSON: If I'm wrong and I do not -- or 7 if you will just grant me the opportunity to make form 8 objections later, that will be fine. 9 MS. MARCH: That's fine. That's fine. 10 MR. WILSON: You agree to that as a 11 stipulation? 12 MS. MARCH: I will agree to that as a 13 stipulation. 14 MR. WILSON: Okay. I'm quiet. 15 Q (By Ms. March) So, Mr. Blood, back to the 16 original question, it seems like several minutes ago, you 17 were employed as a member of this task force because you 18 had the working knowledge and experience from the Blaine 19 County Assessor's Office being involved there. Is that 20 what you're telling me, as part of what you brought to the 21 table? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q All right. And you said -- did I write this down until sunset, moved it to the tax commission? 25 A That's correct. Page 53

54 1 Q Would you explain that wording to me? What does 2 that mean? 3 A That means that our job was basically done, 4 computerizing the -- putting computers in the assessor's 5 office and training them on how to use those computers in 6 the state -- I mean, by "state" I'm talking about the state 7 of the condition at that time of the computers and our 8 system. 9 Q How did you accomplish that, the training? Did 10 you go county to county or would you have statewide 11 meetings for the assessor's office? How is that 12 accomplished? 13 A All of the above, plus a lot of one-on-one 14 training. They would come to our office and we would train 15 them on data collection and different things that put this 16 information in there. So we had different kinds of 17 training sessions. We have an annual training session at 18 the Oklahoma Tax Commission School on computer. Every year 19 since I've been working we've done that, and the tax 20 commission asked us to do some training while we were in 21 the task force, at that time, to help the assessor's learn 22 how to use a computer and be familiar with them. 23 Q How long did that initial -- let's -- if I can 24 just refer to it as the start-up of getting the assessors 25 to the point where this -- where they're using the Page 54

55 1 computers. Because I've practiced long enough where I 2 remember before there were computers to do this. How long 3 did that process take? 4 A Well, it's an ongoing process. I believe it was 5 mentioned sometime here earlier that someone had a -- 6 somebody working for them. I guess it was -- it was a 7 conversation that Mr. Patton and Mr. Wilson were having, I 8 think, that said something about, well, people got trained 9 and Mr. Patton said some of the people got trained there 10 pretty well and somebody got hired out from under them. 11 And there is an ongoing problem with the assessor's office 12 where you get somebody trained to get familiar with the 13 computer, and now there's a bigger market for their skills 14 and somebody snatches them out from under them. And that 15 happens quite often in the counties. 16 Q It's ongoing because the turnover is high? 17 A (Nods head). 18 Q Being the go-between, and that's what I 19 understood you to say, that "beginning in 1996 I became the 20 go-between between the assessors' offices and the software 21 companies." Is that correct? Did I understand that 22 correctly? 23 A Yes. That happened somewhere while I was still 24 in the task force. When they moved me to the tax 25 commission I continued that type of thing that I was doing. Page 55

56 1 Q And the software company was this Radiant 2 Software? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And did they become the software company that was 5 used -- I believe you said it was because the assessors had 6 a bidding process and they were the low bid? 7 A Uh-huh. 8 Q And have you started with Radiant Software and 9 stayed with Radiant Software throughout the years? 10 A We started with KB Systems, but Radiant Software 11 is owned by the original designer of KB Systems. The 12 company was sold off at one time to Terrasoft for a period 13 of approximately two to three years. 14 Q Are you saying Terrasoft, T-e-r-r-a soft? 15 A Yes. 16 Q So it was sold to Terrasoft for approximately 17 three years, and then what happens? 18 A Then the owner of KB Systems bought it back and 19 placed it under the name of Radiant Software. 20 Q Okay. And that's where we are today, Radiant? 21 A Yes. That's correct. 22 Q With regard to the CAMA system that is used, 23 based upon your training and experience, who generally has 24 access to CAMA? Who are the individuals that have access 25 to that normally? Page 56

57 1 A That would be the county assessor and their 2 employees, and the tax commission, with the permission of 3 the county assessor. You know, we try to work with the 4 county assessor in that we don't disrupt the flow of work 5 anymore than we have to do updates and various things that 6 way. Also, some of our employees -- well, our employees do 7 ratio studies, and they have to draw down certain 8 information to be able to do that ratio study to see 9 whether the county is in compliance or not. 10 Q When the tax commission conducts these ratio 11 studies, does that have to be in conjunction with 12 permission from the county assessors' offices for the CAMA? 13 A No. That's by statute. It's a statutory 14 responsibility of the tax ad valorem division of the tax 15 commission to do a ratio study each year to see where 16 they're at in their ratio of sales to actual price on 17 the -- in the machine. 18 Q If I understand your testimony correctly, the 19 hypothetical questions that you've been asked about you 20 personally, if you were in the Grady County Assessor's 21 Office and you were requested to make a copy of the Real 22 Property Assessment Database, and you've been asked several 23 of those questions, first of all, have you personally ever 24 been standing in the Grady County Assessor's Office and 25 been asked to provide a copy of these databases, either the Page 57

58 1 AA database or CAMA database for anyone? 2 A No, I've been asked -- well, I've been asked to 3 copy them for history file purposes to be read through that 4 CAMA system. For instance, if a taxpayer comes in and 5 wants to know what took place two years ago or three years 6 ago, we copy -- we try to save that database where it was 7 when their -- at least, when their abstract is done, 8 sometimes later when their tax roll is completed. It just 9 depends on what the assessor asks us to do. We try to 10 train them on how to do that themselves, and sometimes they 11 call on the phone and need assistance. 12 Q So are you saying that you personally have taken 13 the action which you've just described for us in the Grady 14 County Assessor's Office, at the request of our county 15 assessor, or are you just speaking in general terms that 16 you've been asked to? 17 A I'm speaking in general terms. I may have or I 18 may not have in Grady. 19 Q With regard to your testimony concerning if this 20 database, the Real Property Assessment Database, was going 21 to be copied, the first thing you said was that everyone 22 would have to be out of the system; correct? 23 A That's correct. If not -- we call it covering 24 our backside when we go in there and do that. And I've 25 been caught with my backside not covered, and it's not a Page 58

59 1 pleasant scenario. 2 Q A couple of questions along that line. First of 3 all, when you say if everyone is not out of the system the 4 files could be corrupted, what does that mean in layman's 5 terms? 6 A Well, that would mean that if the file was open 7 and we begin a copy, it could -- it would corrupt that data 8 and make it unreadable for maybe the person that it's being 9 copied for or it might make it -- that copy might go 10 through all right, but then after the copy is done then the 11 county assessor's data might be messed up. It just 12 depends. 13 MR. WILSON: I would even stipulate that 14 that's a good practice to have everyone else out of the 15 database. 16 Q (By Ms. March) Based upon your training and 17 experience in the years that you've been involved with the 18 Oklahoma -- the county assessors in the State of Oklahoma, 19 would it be unusual during a working day for -- let's say 20 during the working hours that the county assessors' offices 21 are open, would it be unusual for there to be a time period 22 during the day where at least one person is not in that 23 database? 24 A The only time that I would figure that might 25 happen is if they shut the office down for dinner at noon Page 59

60 1 and everybody was -- and they might walk out with it still 2 in the -- it might still be hooked to it. 3 Q So would it be a correct assumption on my part if 4 the office is open for business, based upon your training 5 and experience, most likely some employee of a county 6 assessor's office is in that database? 7 A That would be a good assumption, or a likely 8 assumption, I should say. 9 Q With regard to specifically the Grady County 10 Assessor's Office, do you personally know how many of the 11 employees have access to this database on a daily basis? 12 A I assume that, and that's an assumption without 13 looking and without being present and going into it, I 14 would assume that most of them do. 15 Q One of the things that you testified to during 16 Mr. Wilson's questions was that in some counties they have 17 two servers; is that correct, that to your knowledge some 18 counties have more than one server? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Now, just from my experience with our server in 21 the district attorney's office, my understanding is that a 22 server can be fairly expensive. Is that correct, based 23 upon your training and experience? 24 A They're more expensive than a workstation would 25 be, yes. Page 60

61 1 Q In the counties that have more than one server, 2 Mr. Blood, are they larger, more populated counties, or do 3 some very small counties with a smaller population have 4 more than one server? 5 A I don't know of a small county that has two 6 servers. I do know of counties -- and "small" is relative. 7 You know, I do know of some counties about the size of 8 Grady County that have two servers. 9 Q What counties would those be, sir, to your 10 knowledge? 11 A Kay County has two servers. I'm not sure what 12 other -- Garfield County has two servers. And technically 13 I have to back up, because most of the counties now have 14 two servers since they went to Lennox as a server, a Lennox 15 server. They have a back-up server, they call it. And 16 that Lennox server has a back-up in which the work done 17 during the day is backed up to that back-up server so that 18 if the main server crashes they can get what was originally 19 there, plus what was added from the back-up server. 20 Q And Lennox is the brand name of the server? 21 A No. That's the software. 22 Q The software? 23 A And that's the depth of my knowledge right there. 24 Q I won't ask you anything else about Lennox then. 25 So is Grady County, then, in the minority as far as since Page 61

62 1 you said a lot of counties do have two servers? Are we in 2 the minority by not having two? 3 A They have a back-up server, but other than that I 4 don't know whether they have a second server. 5 Q When you originally testified, were you making a 6 distinction between two servers and counties that have 7 their server plus the back-up server? 8 A When the question was asked I was thinking about 9 the main server, and the back-up server is just what it 10 states. 11 Q Just what you say, a back-up server? 12 A It's a back-up. It's a big CD, I guess is what 13 you would call it. 14 Q And the back-up servers, based upon your training 15 and experience, do they automatically save everything at 16 the end of the day or does someone have to do something to 17 make sure that the back-up server is saving everything, or 18 is that an unfair question? 19 A I'm not sure how they work. I just remember 20 hearing the conversation that there's a back-up server, and 21 I have no knowledge beyond that. 22 Q I appreciate that. Mr. Blood, going back to 23 someone being in the database when a copy is being made and 24 problems with corruption, Counsel asked you or made the 25 statement that this is significant enough, the possibility Page 62

63 1 that someone could cause a serious problem, this is 2 significant enough that there is a rule. What's the rule? 3 A Well, it's just a -- by "rule" I mean that it's 4 standard operating procedure that we tell our people that 5 go out to the counties, "Make sure you've got a back-up." 6 Even when they do an update, we say "Make sure you've got a 7 back-up." Does that always happen? No, it doesn't. 8 Q But a word to the wise, is what you're saying, is 9 have a back-up? 10 A Uh-huh. 11 Q Based upon your training and experience and the 12 vast knowledge that you have of a county assessor's office, 13 to your knowledge is it possible for an employee of the 14 county assessor's office to be in the database but be 15 offsite? For instance, be on a laptop computer and somehow 16 be on the system and not be sitting in the county 17 assessor's office or must one be in the county assessor's 18 office to be in that database? 19 A To my knowledge, it's possible, but I don't know 20 of anybody that's doing it. Because there's wireless 21 networks, you know. That happens, but if it's happening I 22 don't know about it in any of the counties of that 59 or Q The AA database, which I understand to be the 25 Administrative Assessment Database; is that correct? Page 63

64 1 A Assessment Administration. 2 Q So I got it backwards. Assessment Administration 3 Database. What is that database? 4 A That is the system which has the tax roll. It's 5 main function is to produce a tax roll for the county 6 treasurer, and to be able to report the assessed value of 7 the property. And assessed value is based upon the 8 assessment ratio for that county, which runs between 11 and 9 14 percent, I believe is the range in there. And it varies 10 from different counties, but it's a reporting system of the 11 tax roll and administrative things that the CAMA System 12 doesn't have. 13 Q So the CAMA and AA are totally separate? Their 14 functions are different, their purposes are different? 15 A Yes. The CAMA System is a Computer Assisted Mass 16 Appraisal. It's function is to value the property and 17 assets, whatever they might be, and deliver that value to 18 the AA system in which they apply the assessment ratio to 19 it and the levy, so that the tax roll can be set and a 20 billing be made to the taxpayer. 21 Q Counsel asked you the hypothetical questions 22 about you being the one, if you were in the assessor's 23 office and you were requested to copy these two databases. 24 What my question is specifically is, based upon your 25 training and experience, Mr. Blood, have you, yourself, Page 64

65 1 through your employment had any professional dealings with 2 the plaintiff in this case, Sage Information Services, 3 Roger Hulbert? Have you dealt with this company in your 4 experience? 5 A I never heard of them until I got the subpoena. 6 Q Based upon your, once again, training and 7 experience in this area, have you known of requests by 8 not-for-profit groups, charitable groups? Do you know of 9 any requests by them for either of these databases to be 10 copied? 11 A Not to my knowledge. 12 Q Counsel asked you about the attorney general's 13 opinion with regard to county assessors and their copying 14 of records. And when those questions were asked I believe 15 you mentioned that there was a -- let me see if I wrote it 16 down. A cost -- I'm going to call it a cost guideline, the 17 Assessors Association cost schedule. Based on your 18 training and experience, have you had any dealings with 19 that? 20 A I've just been at meetings where they talked 21 about setting that cost schedule up so that it would be, I 22 assume, a sense of being uniform. 23 Q To your knowledge was that done? Was the cost 24 schedule set up by the Assessors Association? 25 A Yes. They -- several meetings I was at they Page 65

66 1 mentioned this, they had committees appointed. And the 2 last I heard was that they set one up. Dollar amounts, I 3 don't know. I'm just not interested in that kind of stuff. 4 Q And I'm really not either, but I've got to ask. 5 Do you know about when that was? 6 A It's been within, I assume, the last couple of 7 years. There was a suggested scheduling before that by the 8 state auditor some years back. I don't know. It's been a 9 while. And that was suggested so that the county assessors 10 might be able to recoup some of the cost involved in 11 gathering the data, and also to be able to use the funds 12 gathered from that to replace computers when they broke 13 down and stuff. 14 Q So money gathered from those fees would be used 15 to replace computers in the individual county assessor's 16 office? 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q Do you know of any changes -- and I understand 19 that the fee schedule is not actually your area of 20 interest, but just upon your training and experience and 21 working closely with the county assessors in Oklahoma, do 22 you know of any changes that were made to a uniformed fee 23 schedule based upon an Oklahoma Attorney General's opinion? 24 A No, I haven't. I haven't read that. 25 Q The CAMA database, to your understanding is that Page 66

67 1 copyright protected? Is that information protected or can 2 we just -- 3 A The programs that enable you to read that is 4 copyrighted. The database, my understanding is that 5 belongs to the county assessor's office or the taxpayer or 6 whoever is in -- you know, that's my understanding. I 7 don't know. I may be wrong on that, but that's my 8 understanding. 9 Q Did I understand your testimony correctly that if 10 you were asked to make a copy of the AA database that 11 because of the reasons that you set forth in your 12 testimony, you would not be able to just go and do that in 13 a county assessor's office? 14 A I would not be able to do that because -- I could 15 possibly do it, but, again, to cover my backside, I just 16 wouldn't want to do it. 17 Q So you wouldn't want to chance it for possibility 18 of corrupting files or A Yeah. And all of the ramifications that go with 20 it. 21 Q Mr. Blood, if Ms. Firestone is requested to make 22 a copy, let's say of both of these databases, CAMA and AA, 23 by someone, do you agree, first of all, that you do not 24 have the information -- you would not know, first of all, 25 what it would cost her with regard to if one employee Page 67

68 1 performed that function, what it would cost to pay that 2 employee after hours to do it? 3 A I have no idea what the employee is being paid. 4 Q And with regard to your estimates of how long it 5 would take to make a copy of the CAMA database, would you 6 say that your testimony has just been an estimate, and 7 would you agree that you don't know exactly how long it 8 would take to copy the Grady County CAMA database for the 9 individual requesting the same? 10 A It's an estimate. 11 Q So with regard to the actual cost of time and 12 materials, would you agree that Ms. Firestone would be more 13 able to answer that question than yourself? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Based upon your training and experience with the 16 county assessors in the state of Oklahoma, do you know of 17 any reason why any employee of the county assessor's office 18 should be required to stay after hours and donate their 19 time to make a copy for someone who's going to use it for 20 profit? 21 A That would be the assessor's call, I would 22 assume. I have asked county employees to stay after hours 23 so I wouldn't have to drive back the next day or something 24 that way. And sometimes they say, "I'm sorry" and 25 sometimes they say "We're closing the doors. You can stay Page 68

69 1 here tonight if you want to." 2 Q So 4:30 means 4:30 or 5:00 means 5:00, and the 3 county employees are gone? 4 A You're liable to get knocked down if you're 5 standing in the door sometimes. 6 Q And do you know -- and this may -- and I 7 apologize if it's something that you haven't dealt with, 8 but I'm just going to ask. Based upon your training and 9 experience, do you know if the county assessors' offices 10 are allowed by law to pay their employees overtime to stay 11 after hours and make copies of databases? Do you know if 12 they're allowed to pay overtime? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Okay. You told me that you don't -- have never 15 heard of Sage Information Services. Do you know why Sage 16 Information Services or a copy out of Glen Ellen, 17 California would request copies of our Grady County 18 records, the CAMA and AA databases? Do you have a reason 19 for this? 20 A I don't know why. There's been companies out of 21 Florida and different places in the United States that have 22 wanted information in the past. And, again, that's the 23 assessor's call, whether they get it or not. I mean, I 24 have no right to say they can have it or can't have it. 25 Q Do you know why these out-of-state companies Page 69

70 1 would request that specific information, for what purpose? 2 A The ones that I've -- the assessors have called 3 me and asked about and asked what they could do to get 4 information out of the system, were usually appraisal 5 companies of some kind or realtors or an information system 6 that is producing a list of real estate clients. 7 Q Mr. Blood, do you know in Oklahoma how many of 8 the county assessors utilize the company which you've 9 described as VLS, Visual Lease Services? 10 A No. There was -- this list here showed several, 11 it looked like to me. I show several counties listed here. 12 Q But just personal knowledge, do you have that? 13 A No. I don't keep up with their numbers. 14 Q Now, with regard to Exhibit No. 3, which appears 15 to be from Visual Lease Services, it was the Assessment 16 Central Quarterly, Counsel asked you to read the 17 highlighted part of that, I would refer to as an article by 18 Tracy Leniger, which I believe you've testified you don't 19 know that person; correct? 20 A I may have met them, but I just -- the name don't 21 ring a bell to me. Because I've been in Visual Leasing 22 offices when they were developing a CAMA system of their 23 own. And we had to -- it had certain State requirements 24 that it had to meet to be an acceptable system under the 25 task force rules or statutes that were set up under the Page 70

71 1 task force for a CAMA System to do business in the state of 2 Oklahoma. 3 Q Do you know whether or not this article that you 4 were requested to read from, do you know whether it's fact 5 or fiction, personally? Whether anything in it is true? 6 A This is the first I've seen it. I don't know. 7 Q Part of the quote that you read referred to 8 counties that promote their county's website. Do you know 9 whether or not the Grady County Assessor has their own 10 website? 11 A They did have a -- OU doing something for them a 12 few years back, but I don't know whether that is in 13 operation or not now. 14 Q And do you know whether the Grady County 15 Assessor's Office promotes the oklahomaassessor.com 16 website? 17 A I do not know. 18 Q No further questions. Thank you, Mr. Blood. 19 MR. WILSON: I've just got one Redirect. 20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. WILSON: 22 Q Mr. Blood, are you aware that Section 24A.5(6) of 23 the Open Records Act of the State of Oklahoma states as 24 follows, "A public body shall designate certain persons who 25 are authorized to release records of the public body for Page 71

72 inspection, copying or mechanical reproduction. At least 2 one person shall be available at all times to release 3 records during the regular business hours of the public 4 body"? Were you aware of that statute, sir? 5 A I haven't read the Open Records Act through. 6 Q Okay. That's all I've got. 7 MR. PATTON: The witness will read and sign. 8 (Deposition concluded.) 9 * * * * * * * * Page 72

73 1 J U R A T 2 I, GLEN BLOOD, do hereby state under oath that I 3 have read the above and foregoing deposition in its 4 entirety and that the same is a full, true and correct 5 transcription of my testimony so given at said time and 6 place, except for the corrections noted. 7 With corrections. 8 No corrections Glen BLOOD Subscribed and sworn to before me, the undersigned 13 Notary Public in and for the State of Oklahoma, on this, 14 the day of, 200_ NOTARY PUBLIC My Commission Expires: 20 My Commission Number: 21 Reported by: Julee Thummel, CSR Page 73

74 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 STATE OF OKLAHOMA ) ) SS. 3 COUNTY OF OKLAHOMA ) 4 5 I, Julee Thummel, Oklahoma Certified Shorthand 6 Reporter, certify that GLEN BLOOD was by me sworn to 7 testify the truth; that the deposition was taken by me in 8 stenotype and thereafter transcribed, and is a true and 9 correct transcript of the testimony of the witness; that 10 the deposition was taken on the 17th day of June, 2009, at 11 1:30 p.m., in the City of Oklahoma City, County of 12 Oklahoma, State of Oklahoma; that I am neither attorney for 13 nor relative of either of said parties, or otherwise 14 interested in the event of said action. 15 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand 16 and official seal on this, the 23rd day of June, Julee Thummel, CSR, Oklahoma Certified Shorthand Reporter Page 74

75 1 E R R A T A S H E E T 2 3 WITNESS: GLEN BLOOD 4 STYLE: HURLBERT V. FIRESTONE 5 REPORTER: Julee Thummel, CSR 6 7 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON Page 75

76

77

78

79

80

81 To: VOLUME 1, ISSUE 2 OCTOBER 1st, 2005 Visual Lease Services 200 E. Main Holdenville, OK Assessment Central Quarterly Haskell County, Ok Contract Signed September 19th VLS Spotlight Intergrated Cama/AA Package. Haskell County commissioners & county assessor Roger Ballard signed an oil/gas appraisal contract with Visual Lease Services, Inc. September 19, WE RE ON THE WEB! On Tuesday the 11th of October, Blaine County Assessor Rosemary Neely and the County Commissioners signed a visual inspection and rural addressing contract. Questions & Comments: assessmentcentral@vlsmaps.com Subscribe to our newsletter: Name: Address: City: State: Zip: The board of County Commissioners and county Assessor, Regina Mengers of Okmulgee County will be signing a contract for oil/gas appraisal with VLS, on October 17th, Rick, Jerry, and I are always striving to bring quality service and products to County Government, please contact us about a demonstration of this great new tool. We look very forward to working with these counties! Gary Visual Lease Services newest employees! was an Audit Manager for the Ad Valorem Division of the Oklahoma State Tax Commission. Ron also served 11 years on the school board for the Wewoka Public Schools. Welcome to VLS Ron! Home Phone: Office: Mail To: Visual Lease Services, Inc. 200 E. Main Holdenville, OK VLS is proud to announce a partnership with Lee Mayhew, which will bring to assessor s an affordable software solution for assessment administration and computer assisted mass appraisals. Visual Lease Services is pleased to announce our newest addition to the staff as of August 3, 2005, former Seminole County Assessor, Ronald L. Sosbee. Ron has over 24 years experience in Real/Personal property and Oil/Gas appraisal. He was also Chief of Staff for the State Auditor and Inspector, and served as an advisor to the State Equalization Board. Ron VLS 2nd newest addition to the staff as of October 3rd is Tom Johnson. He has 12 years experience in the property tax system in Oklahoma. He conducted Mass Appraisal in Cotton County and mapped the County. He has c onduc ted rat io st udie s for the Oklahoma Tax Commission, developing methods for automating data collection and analysis of these ratio studies. While at the Oklahoma Tax Commission he was involved in special appraisal Projects as well as mapping assistance. Inside this issue: Assessor s Calendar 2 Appraiser s Corner 2 Online with OkAssessor 2 GIS Updates 3 Ad Valorem Angles 3

82 Page 2 Assessor s calendar October th 28th Oklahoma Co. Assessors Fall Conference November th 4:00 7:00 p.m. International Association of Assessing Officers February th-22nd 10th Anniversary of the Integrating GIS & CAMA* Conference Orlando, Florida The other side of the energy price coin is the value of property used to produce energy. Online with OKAssessor BY: Tracy Leniger Greetings from OkAssessor! These are exciting times for OkAssessor.com! The marketing campaign we were preparing for last time is underway and in full effect. We started off our campaign with postcard mailings and at the end of September we hosted a two day Meet and Greet event in Lawton. Many were unaware that there was an alternative program to the one they currently subscribe to. They were very pleased to discover our service. We have made contact with several businesses in Comanche County and are continuing to follow up on that project. We recently attended the Oklahoma Association of Realtors (OAR) Education Conference and Tradeshow held at the Cox Convention Center in Oklahoma City, October 5-7. We were very successful and encouraged by the positive response we received. Appraiser's Corner By: Steve Sutterfield The Effect of Supply and Demand on Market Value Everyone remembers the basic tenets of economics when demand increases and supply remains the same, prices go up. If supply decreases and demand is level, price goes up. I won t even bother to address price going down. You d have to be really dense or really rich not to notice what has happened to the price of energy in the last year. Oil is up, and coupled with an apparent shortage of refinery capability, the price of gasoline has skyrocketed. The price of natural gas has gone along for the ride, although I haven t heard of any reason why. These affect other types of properties in different ways. Again, many were unaware of our service. This leads me to again stress the importance of your participation. Those counties that promote their county s website have the highest numbers in the state and receive higher paying royalty checks. The counties that are continually promoting OkAssessor.com have shown an improvement in numbers. I receive countless incoming calls where potential customers tell me they were referred by the assessor s office. That tells me that Y-O-U are promoting your county s website and want to increase your royalty check. Keep up the great job! I would also like to take this time to congratulate you on the magnificent job you all are doing by updating your county information. This is so important to our current customers and potential customers. I usually am For example, take Sport Utility Vehicles. SUV s are not exactly famous for their great mileage. Demand for these vehicles has dropped drastically, and manufacturers have responded by reducing prices accordingly. The other side of the energy price coin is the value of property used to produce energy. Any given week this year, there have been an average of 200 new wells being drilled in Oklahoma. Day rates, the amount of rent charged for drilling rigs, has increased well over 50% from a year ago. Even though manufacturers are producing new rigs as fast as possible, it s obvious that a working rig is worth considerably more than a year ago. As more gas is produced, demand for pipe, asked right off the bat, how current our information is. No one wants information that is outdated. Your continued assistance in promoting our service as well as the marketing campaign we have in place, will bring OkAssessor Awareness statewide. We want to thank you for your continued participation in promoting OkAssessor.com and if you need any brochures, business cards, have suggestions or comments please drop me an at either tracy@okassessor.com or tlleniger@vlsmaps.com. We ll see you all soon! compressors, and even meters will increase. The value of a refinery is practically incalculable. So long as demand increases at a greater rate than new units can be manufactured, value will go up. Another important value consideration under these economic circumstances is depreciation. Physical deterioration will still occur if equipment is used, even though the rate of loss in value will be much less than the rate of increase. Loss through functional obsolescence will not be greatly affected by supply and demand. It is the result of technological innovation, which in turn might affect supply and demand, but not in the case of the present energy economy. If new technology is developed to truly provide greater efficiencies, value will be impacted. The final form of depreciation is economic obsolescence. In the instance of equipment or other personal property, it is usually the result of the consumer side of the market and occurs most often when demand decreases or even stops. By definition, the presence of economic obsolescence is virtually impossible under the current economic circumstances. In fact, the huge increases in energy costs represent the exact economic opposite of obsolescence. Economic obsolescence in real GIS UPDATES By: Chris Mask Visual Lease Services, Inc. (VLS) will be providing a program to view oil and gas records through the Internet. The data will be composed of GPS locations of equipment, detailed lists of equipment, pictures, personal property renditions, and production records. The approach to the project is to be able to provide Before we know it, the New Year will be here. The spooks of Halloween, the salutes to our veterans, giving thanks for our many blessings, celebrating Christmas and the New Years resolutions will be behind us. It will soon be time to be thinking about the state legislature coming back in session and that can be even spookier than Halloween. However, we can give thanks and celebrate that we have veterans such as Jim Kelly and Karen Perkins and their legislative and pipeline committee members who are resilient enough to work with the legislature. property is more often locational in nature and might still occur on a case by case basis, while in personal property it tends to affect all property of a given type or industry. The folks at the Ad Valorem Division have completed their annual survey of industry to seek input for next year s schedules for oil and gas equipment. The result is level and sometimes increased equipment values. Visual Lease Services is presently reviewing our own schedules and appropriate adjustments will be made before next year s our clients the same material VLS uses in valuing oil and gas property. In addition, this provides our clients with up-to-date data quickly and easily. This is a brief overview on how the program works if information of an oil and gas well is needed. One or more Ad Valorem Angles By: Ron Sosbee This legislative year should be as busy as ever. You will probably see legislation filed increasing homestead exceptions, veterans exceptions and everything in between. There will be new proposed cap legislation. This seems to be a common legislative theme year after year. As we visited in our last quarterly newsletter, there will probably be a similar version of HB 1715 introduced again this year. At least I would be prepared for that type of bill being filed this next legislative session. Oklahoma assessors and educational groups should offer all the help they can to assessment period begins. In the review process, we consider data from every possible source, including that obtained directly from property owners, information presented as evidence in hearings and trials, economic data from media, and, perhaps most importantly, from you. If you are reading this newsletter and have any data you d like to share, we would love to hear from you. items can be selected on a click of a button you will get the detailed information of that selection. The program will be executed through ArcView and displayed through a web interface such as FireFox or Internet Explorer. The projected date of the beta program will be January, their respective legislative committees. The next time you see Jim or Karen give them a pat on the back for all their hard work. Also stay in touch with your legislators and let them know your opinions on new legislation. The novelist and play-write James Baldwin said, Not everything that is faced can be changed but nothing can be changed until it is faced. Enjoy your Holidays and I ll see you at the State Capital. Page 3 Upcoming 2005 Plat books: October Haskell Sequoyah Major November Atoka Comanche December Cleveland COMING IN 2006! Cherokee Delaware Lincoln Logan Muskogee Ottawa Wagoner RE-PRINTED IN 2006! Pittsburg Hughes LeFlore Coal Choctaw Not everything that is faced can be changed but nothing can be changed until it is faced.