MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING OF THE MANHEIM TOWNSHIP BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS MONDAY, MAY 12, :30 P.M.

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1 MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING OF THE MANHEIM TOWNSHIP BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS MONDAY, MAY 12, :30 P.M. Roll Call: The regular meeting of the Manheim Township Board of Commissioners was held at 7:30 p.m., Monday, May 12, 2008 in the Municipal Building. Members present were: Commissioners Downing, Flanagan, Casselbury, Keebler and Simpson, and Manager-Secretary James M. Martin. There were 40 people in the audience. President Downing led all in attendance in the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. President Downing announced that there will be no second meeting in May due to Memorial Day. The next Commissioners meeting will be Monday, June 9, He also announced that the Commissioners had an executive session tonight before this meeting to discuss Jim Martin s replacement. Approval of Minutes: Commissioner Flanagan moved, and Mr. Casselbury seconded approving the minutes of the April 28, 2008 Manheim Township Commissioners Administrative Meeting. President Downing asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. There were none. Motion carried unanimously. Payment of Bills: Commissioner Keebler moved to approve the May 12 th disbursements and to fund the appropriate accounts for the disbursements. She presented bills for the period ending May 12, 2008 from the General Fund in the amount of $194,842.79, from the Library Fund in the amount of $4,412.00, from the Golf Course Fund in the amount of $4,289.35, from the Capital Reserve Fund in the amount of $345,667.21, and from the Parks Capital Fund in the amount of $1,337.95, for a total of $550,549.30, and from the Highway Aid Fund in the amount of $14, for PPL and $17, for Rothrock Motor Sales (car replacement), for a Grand Total of $582, Seconded by Mr. Casselbury. President Downing asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. There were none. Motion carried unanimously. Commissioner Keebler said the Capital Reserve Fund numbers are high because of the payment for Overlook Pool which has an opening date of June 7. Old Business: Commissioner Simpson as the Commissioner representative on the Overlook Community Foundation Board which meets on the third Tuesday night of the month at 5:30 p.m. and normally they meet here, announced that their next meeting which is May 20 will be at 5:30 p.m. but it is going to be in the Middle School and they are anticipating the potential for a pretty big crowd because of their discussion about fields. Commissioner Simpson said they had a fabulous day on Saturday; over 400 people played miniature golf; over 80 kids were in the ice cream eating contest; they had a full house Saturday night at the Taste of Township and everybody had a great time there and they talked about the fact that they have to promote that more because it s such a

2 fun event; it s very inexpensive and you get beer, wine, food, music, some Manheim Township glasses; and the idea is to get Manheim Township residents just out socializing. New Business: Resolution : Appointment to the Manheim Township Overlook Community Foundation Commissioner Flanagan moved to adopt Resolution appointing John R. Smith to the Manheim Township Overlook Community Foundation until the first Monday in January, Seconded by Mrs. Simpson. President Downing asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. There were none. Motion carried unanimously. Resolution : Appointment to the Manheim Township Public Library Board Commissioner Simpson moved to adopt Resolution appointing Lois Morgan to the Manheim Township Public Library Board until the first Monday in January, 2011, to fill the unexpired term of Linda Skelly. Seconded by Mr. Flanagan. President Downing asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. There were none. Motion carried unanimously. President Downing noted that the Capital Campaign is underway now in the silent phase which means we haven t gone public, so a lot of them haven t heard from us yet, but they will. Vice President Flanagan administered the Oath of Office to John R. Smith as a member of the Manheim Township Overlook Community Foundation and to Lois Morgan as a member of the Manheim Township Public Library Board. Resolution : Appointment as a Co-Trustee of the Trust Established Under the Will of Elizabeth S. Ludgate Commissioner Simpson moved to adopt Resolution confirming the appointment of Thomas J. Woodland as a co-trustee of the Trust Established Under the Will of Elizabeth S. Ludgate, which is the trust that funds the Stauffer Park building as well as the grounds. Seconded by Mr. Casselbury. Ms. Nancy M. Hughes, an attorney with Barley Snyder, representing the trustees of the Elizabeth Ludgate Trust, and on behalf of the Trustees, requested that Tom Woodland be confirmed to continue his role as one of the co-trustees of the Trust and that he be allowed to receive the modest annual fee that the other individual co-trustees have been receiving. President Downing asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. There were none. Motion carried unanimously. At the request of Commissioner Simpson, Ms. Hughes explained the Trust to the audience. Page 2 of 38

3 Pool Joint Task Force Presentation Commissioner Casselbury announced that Jody Kuntz was the Chairperson for the Pool Committee and they worked very hard on this; they went on a couple of different field trips; they got a lot of good information and there was a lot of good sparring go on, going through this and making a recommendation and decisions, and they put together a great presentation. Ms. Kuntz gave a power point presentation and started off with sharing one of the more significant facts confirmed by their research: if built properly and programmed properly, a multi-pool facility will pay for itself. Another statistic that is difficult to ignore is this: 70% of the earth s surface is covered by water; everyday nine people in the US drown, often because they ve never learned to swim. According to the CDC, drowning is the second leading cause of injury related death in children; learning to swim could save a child s life. The committee is a group of Manheim Township residents and staff representing the Manheim Township School Board, the Township Commissioners, Parks and Rec, High School Aquatics, the Overlook Pool, the Skyline Pool and the Manheim Township Joint Task Force. Ms. Kuntz said they are actually a subcommittee of the Manheim Township Joint Task Force which is a task force assembled by the School Board and the Commissioners to identify opportunities for collaboration between the two governing bodies; and what generated the subcommittee was the realization that Overlook, Skyline and the High School pool were all ailing and in need of significant renovation. While a renovation of Overlook is about to be completed, the Joint Task Force saw that a solution was still needed for Skyline and the High School pool, so our sub-committee was created. The group started meeting back in October and met approximately the first and third Monday of each month until now; they consulted aquatic experts, visited aquatic facilities and discussed their research with each other and citizens from the community who attended our meetings, until they arrived at the recommendation that they are presenting tonight unanimously. They hashed through some of the initial details and quickly discovered or confirmed the following. Pools appeal to and directly benefit residents of all ages. All children and adults should learn to swim. The unique properties of water provide an environment suitable for people of all ages and abilities; buoyancy allows for reduced impact exercise that is easy on the joints while the water s resistance challenges the muscles. Indoor aquatics and outdoor aquatics are two separate enterprises but the existence of each creates a successful environment for both facilities. They ve learned that they won t build you a pool for free; but the good news is that because of all that they offer and the high level of demand especially in Lancaster County, pools can be great sources of revenue generation. There were recently four large organizations outside of the High School vying for time in the ailing indoor facility. Finally they learned that the Lancaster Aquatic Club, an organization primed to raise revenue for the construction of a pool, would be willing to collaborate as a financial partner, aquatic advisor and facility manager. Ms. Kuntz said tonight in response to your requests as well as the requests of the Page 3 of 38

4 Manheim Township School Board, our committee will present an enterprise plan for a new sustainable indoor aquatic center and recommend that this facility be built in Manheim Township as a collaborative effort between the School Board, the Commissioners and the Lancaster Aquatic Club. They will also recommend that the Skyline Pool be renovated or relocated and continue to operate as an outdoor 50 meter summer pool, to be explained by Ms. Pam Schmitt. Ms. Schmitt said regarding the current condition of the Skyline Pool, the facility is over 50 years old and they will see from some of these photos that the changing facilities, the shower and the bathroom facilities are in desperate need of renovation or replacement. The Skyline Pool is very well attended; actually the patronage in 2007 was 6,800 recreational users and it is the home of the Skyline Swim Team which in 2007 had 220 members and will have that many members again in It is an ailing facility. The pool committee s recommendation is as follows: renovation or complete replacement of the Skyline Pool. The large number of recreational users, and at this point 1,100 more than the Overlook facility, deems it necessary to keep this pool running and to bring it up to current standards. There is also a swim team that has competitive pool requirements and there is a lot of community support for Skyline. Ms. Schmitt said it is well attended and she can say for herself, it is well loved by the community and particularly by the swim team. It s a safe recreational place for children, adults and seniors, and it s well located on Eden Road. Recommendations are complete renovation of the bathrooms, lockers and shower facilities. They would also like to see the addition of a family changing room which would serve two purposes: one for families with young children and two, to allow handicap access which we currently do not have at Skyline. The snack bar and office area are in need of renovation. They would like to add a pavilion with picnic tables which could be used during normal operating hours and also for special events. They would also like to have a new gutter system designed so that a touch pad timing system could be accommodated for the swim team. They would like the zero depth entry for one-third of the pool and that would also comply with the Americans With Disabilities Act regulations. They would like eight lanes with painted lines for use by the swim team and for lap swimming by recreational users. They would like a permanent bulkhead that could also accommodate starting blocks. They would like to update the playground area. She showed the photo of Hempfield s rec facility with several splash and spray fixtures in the children s area and said they would like the same type of fixtures for Skyline. She showed Alden, Pennsylvania, where there is a triple tube slide and they would like to recommend those types of fixtures be placed at Skyline as well. They would like to include shaded areas and have areas where they could put umbrellas because skin cancer is something people are worried about, so some shaded areas would be beneficial for recreational users as well as swim team users; and new lounges, chairs and picnic tables. Ms. Schmitt said one of the problems that they currently have is the limited parking and on a very warm day, the parking becomes exhausted very quickly; during a large swim meet, it also becomes exhausted; they would like to have an expanded parking area, new fencing around the perimeter, and perhaps designated adults only with the shade Page 4 of 38

5 area, a whirlpool; a new audio system would be helpful as well as pool lights. She said that particularly during the moonlight swims, it can be difficult for the lifeguards to see to the bottom of the pool. She pointed to the Lewisburg, Pennsylvania pool, where they have a competition pool in the foreground and a recreational pool in the background with a rather large slide. She said these types of facilities are all over Pennsylvania as well as the field trip that Jody referred to earlier that they took to Montgomery County, Maryland. She said these features are important to current swimming pools and for the future. She said lastly, replace the main drain line under the pit and other structural mechanicals and anything that needs updated as far as Skyline is concerned. Mr. Jerry Hill continued the presentation saying that they are hopeful the renovation of Overlook will meet the needs of the community this summer and for the remainder of the life of the pool, so the committee at this point has no further recommendation for Overlook but they are keeping their fingers crossed for good weather. Regarding the indoor facility, the 50 year old High School pool is our only indoor aquatic facility for our community s children, families and seniors. He said recent cosmetic renovations and new air handling equipment have greatly improved the aesthetics and the air quality; however, the life of the pool is still unknown and different groups of users require different features which currently cannot be met. For example, the warm shallow water for teaching, community leisure and recreational use is great for young and old swimmers while they are learning how to swim; however, it does not meet the needs of competitive swimming which requires cooler, deeper water for competitive use, and the current deck space is not sufficient for current swim meets or any meets of any significant size. He said they did take a look at a large number of facilities throughout the United States including some that they see listed here. They decided to take a closer look at Montgomery County because of the proximity and some great cooperation they had from Douglas Fox who acts as the Aquatics Director for Montgomery County, and they looked very closely at three of their four facilities and their budgets; they listened to their insights and, of course, took some of their advice. He said the first facility they looked at was the Olmy Swim Center which was completed in 1998 and includes an eight-lane 25 meter pool with separate diving area, a 1 and 3 meter diving board, a shallow warm water free form leisure pool, two hydro-therapy pools, a sauna, a small weight and exercise room, a multi-purpose room which can handle about 194 people and it also has a room for classes, birthday parties and meetings; it has lockers and a changing room. He said the second facility that they took a look at was the Montgomery County Aquatic Center which was built in 1994; it includes an eight-lane L-shaped 50 meter main pool, divided into two 25-meter swim areas, a warm water leisure pool, two separate hydro-therapy pools, a ten meter diving platform, an interior water slide; it also includes a small exercise room, a snack bar, a multi-purpose room for classes, birthday parties and, of course, locker rooms with showers and also a sauna. The most recent addition is the Germantown Swim Center which was completed in 2006 at a cost of approximately 20 million dollars; it includes a recreational pool for instruction, teaching ledges for lessons and water exercise, general recreation activities and Page 5 of 38

6 lap swims; one of the hydro-therapy pools is located along side this pool, while a coed sauna is conveniently located outside the locker room. A leisure pool is equipped to handle handicapped and children who are not comfortable in the other pools; it has warm water and shallow recreation space; it also contains an interactive water feature that includes things like kiddy slides, water umbrellas, tumble buckets; this pool is used for both swim lessons, some adult water exercise and therapy; additionally there is a water slide that is about 200 feet and it dispatches swimmers from the platform level and dumps them into a splash pool area of this leisure pool. They also have a competitive pool which is 25 meters and eight lanes long by 25 yards wide; it is used for lap swims and competition; it is based on NCAA regulations; it has a dive tower containing 5, 7½ meter and 10 meter platform; the diving area also is used for recreational swimming, deep water running, water polo, scuba, water safety instruction and non-competitive training such as fire and rescue. The last photo shows the Germantown Swim Center from the spectator area overlooking the competitive pool and the 200 foot slide in the background. Mr. Hill said these pools are operated by Montgomery County which has a population of about 932,000 and it does operate four indoor facilities; Gaithersburg is centered in Montgomery County and has a population of 57,365 and it is planning to build its own top end aquatic facility. He said just for comparison, we have close to a half million people, our County operates zero indoor facilities; here in Manheim Township we have a population of 35,577 and our aquatic facility is a 50 year old six-lane, 25 yard pool. Mr. Hill said they may be wondering with four outstanding aquatic facilities spread through Montgomery County, why would Gaithersburg have a need to build its own aquatic center, and the answer is in the numbers. The Montgomery County figures in annual numbers, each facility averaged 307,000 visits per year for a total of 1.2 million visits, which is roughly each resident visited a facility 1¼ times last year. They reviewed the financial data while visiting with Douglas Fox, and without getting into detail, the bottom line was the income from the four facilities covered all the expenses of operation, including payroll, benefits, electricity, gas, maintenance and related operating costs. In order for an indoor aquatic center to reach its potential, it must meet many needs, and when we re talking about potential, we re talking about meeting the needs of a wide range of people from infants through people twice his age, 47 at this time, and also to meet the potential for revenue. You need to meet all of these areas -- high school, swim teams in training, physical education, learn to swim programs, USSA swim teams, lap swimming, recreational, adult fitness, physical therapy, safety and rescue, private lessons, scuba, triathlon training, birthday parties, and master swimming. Mr. Fox also suggested, and some of these things are really very obvious and some may be not so, that we hire a good architect and a good builder, and that we build it to be properly programmed so that we can utilize all space to reach its full potential to meet all the community needs and to generate revenue, and decide on the size of your facility and then make it bigger because you will need all the space you can get once it gets rolling. He also emphasized that the leisure family portion of the facility is really the genesis of the facility; the Page 6 of 38

7 families with young children will sustain the facility throughout generations of aquatics use. Mr. Randy gave the recommendations for the High School pool. The space that would be required would be between 4 and 10 acres of land, and this land is currently owned by the School District so there wouldn t actually be any cost for the land. The operating costs and income would play a significant role in the financial planning of the facility; initial funding would be required until the center achieves self-sufficiency, and that is the plan that in a very short period of time, the facility would basically pay for itself. The facility cost information that we have used was provided by USA Swimming. The proposed indoor facility would be located on the Manheim Township School District property where the future 5 th -6 th grade building is proposed which is on the back 40. It is a three pool facility; the first pool would be our community and competitive pool; this would be 50 meters by 75 feet; the temperature would be between 81 and 83 degrees which is ideal for competition; it would have a side stair entry; the depth would be from 4 feet to 6 feet and also there would be a diving well included in that; this would have uses for such as swim teams, physical education classes, lap swimming, water polo could be played in it; synchronized swimming could be done in it; safety and rescue could be held here, and other things such as scuba, triathlon training and deep water aerobics. The construction estimate on this would be1.5 million dollars. Randy said the second pool is our recreational pool. This pool would be approximately 75 by 45 feet, about 3,400 square feet. The temperature of this would be between 89 and 92 degrees, a little warmer for the recreation use, also for children who would be using this for lessons, and this pool would be able to be used for teaching for leisure swim, for rehabilitation therapy, if it s from hospitals or other health care facilities; also it would be able to be used for warm up and cool down during swim meets. This would have a side stair entry and also a ramp to accommodate for handicapped individuals. The depth would be from 0 to 52 inches and the construction estimate cost is $350,000. Randy said the third pool is a small pool which is our teaching and rehabilitation pool; it would be about 450 square feet, just 30 by 15 feet; the temperature of this would be between 86 and 88 degrees; it would be a ramped access and also a stair entry; it would be between 42 and 52 inches deep and the construction estimate on this is $90,000. Randy said all of the costs for the indoor facility are land costs, we put unknown, basically it is the land that we are recommending is already owned by the School District; the first pool, the teaching pool, is approximately $90,000; the competitive pool, 1.5 million; the recreational pool, $350, just shy of 2 million dollars for the three pools. The building would be approximately 6.5 million dollars and that would obviously depend on what type of structure would be built to house the pools. Pre-engineering, planning and architectural fees of $750,000, 15% contingency, for 1.5 million; facility fixtures and equipment, Page 7 of 38

8 approximately 2 million dollars; land development and permitting, 1.5 million -- so the total project cost, approximately 14.2 million dollars. Andy said if they remember from a couple of minutes ago when Jerry was talking about the Germantown facility, that was built for 20 million dollars. Randy said regarding the Skyline renovation costs, the recommendation that they have is really depending on if it is a renovation or a complete replacement of the facility. Renovation would run anywhere from 1.5 to 2.1 or 2.2 million dollars; complete replacement of the facility would be on the high end, probably about 3.8 million dollars; and once again that really depends on how much is available and what the scope of the project would be. He said for both facilities, they tried to brainstorm and come up with where the money could come from, obviously just beside our pockets, but there are many different things: existing capital, commercial loans, private philanthropic organizations might be able to come up with some donations; local bond issues, naming opportunities, and they are thinking that more in particular for the High School pool; getting money from hospitals and other health care organizations that would use the facility; also retailers and our thought with this is that in the indoor facility, we would offer retail space in the facility in exchange for funding; also funds drives and other fundraising activities which could be both for the indoor and outdoor facility -- this would not have to be just before the facilities are built or reconstructed, but this can be ongoing and it could be after as well; partnership with the USS Swim Club and also any federal and state grants that would be available for this. With the operational cost and income, the aquatic center would be a revenue generating entity which would create a self-sustaining facility within the first few years of operation. The aquatic center would be managed by Lancaster Aquatic Club (LAC) who would be responsible for the day-to-day operations, staffing, scheduling the employees and also scheduling the meets, the activities and also the promotion of the indoor facility. Randy said their goal is that this would be a self-sustaining facility in a very short period of time, and just to share with them the basic operating costs and income: the operating costs, and this is based on $9.00 a square foot, would be $449,000, just shy of $450,000; annual salaries, and this is based on 12 employees not including benefits, $322,000. So the annual budget would be $772,000, and these figures are coming from USA Swimming. Operating income: the first income would be from competitive and that would be from three areas: one would be the USS pool rental for training, secondly, non-manheim Township teen pool rentals, and also swim meet rentals, not just for the High School meets but we would be able to rent this facility out for other meets, and that would be approximately $250,000; the learn-to-swim program could generate $150,000, and that is just having an average of five hours of learn-toswim per day which would achieve that $150,000. The community would be able to generate income of approximately $250,000; that is looking at members of the community that can purchase annual memberships, punch cards or a pay-pervisit program. The Township would be given resident pricing on pool memberships and also their thought is that Manheim Township senior citizens Page 8 of 38

9 would be entitled to complimentary pool memberships, and just 500 members at a $49 annual cost would achieve $250,000 in community revenue. The fourth area of recreational could be if we rent the pool out for birthday parties or various activities which would be approximately $90,000 and then other miscellaneous income opportunities, part of that being the retail, would be $50,000. So the annual income would be $790,000 which pretty much equals out to create a selfsustained facility. Ms. Kuntz said to conclude tonight, Manheim Township is on the brink of an amazing opportunity, the opportunity to meet fitness, health, safety and competitive needs of all residents of Manheim Township. Residents of all ages and abilities can and should take advantage of the opportunity to learn to swim. Providing this opportunity is the consummate act of public service. While this facility would be built in Manheim Township, it would sustain itself through revenue generated throughout Lancaster County and beyond. Most if not all of the many outdoor pools in the county operate at or very near capacity. The mere fact that there are four organizations vying to rent time at the ailing indoor High School pool only serves to reinforce what was discovered by the research of our committee. If you build it, they will come, and then you ll have to build another one. She said as detailed in the document they will be giving them tonight, it s this committee s recommendation that the Manheim Township School Board and Township Commissioners along with the Lancaster Aquatic Club collaborate to fund a sustainable indoor aquatic center for the entire community at the sight of the new Manheim Township 5 th -6 th grade building. It is also their recommendation that the Skyline Pool be renovated or replaced in the vicinity of its current location. She said as the existing Manheim Township High School pool and Skyline will only continue to deteriorate rapidly, our committee recommends a decision to accept or reject a plan to move forward and identify a time line for action to be made by May 31. In reply to President Downing, Randy said the School Board has no problem with using their land, but they have not developed a business plan for this nor talked to any commercial financing organizations. Randy said what they were hoping to get is a commitment from the School Board and the Commissioners to move forward with the project. President Downing noted that a couple of years ago, the Commissioners were confronted with an indoor tennis facility and there were a couple of Commissioners who were really bent to get this thing built for 2.7 million dollars, and they really looked at a business plan, and they had the same argument that there would be more money coming in to cover their operating expense, how the debt service was going to be handled was an issue, but he didn t see debt service covered in the finances here and that could be significant; it is for them with the golf course and it does need to be considered. He said he doesn t know anything about Golden Meadows, he just knows the headline story is that they are really struggling. Commissioner Flanagan said the reason that the Township bought Skyline was because as a private enterprise, the owner couldn t make ends meet. He said he Page 9 of 38

10 was a member of Skyline then and they were going to either get the Township to buy it or it was going to be sold to a developer; so it seems like the experience so far in our Township is that this is not something that s self-sustaining. Randy said they could not find an outdoor facility that didn t generate revenue in the county; everyone that they spoke to, and $30,000 seemed to be the magic number, but there are several outdoor facilities that are member owned and member run and they generate revenue. Commissioner Flanagan said with that theory if we were to rebuild Skyline, we should be able to sell it to a developer or someone to run it. He said he s talking about a facility that he was a member of 25 years ago, that wasn t that old, that couldn t generate enough money to pay its bills. He said there was a similar argument that was made for the mini golf course, that it was going to generate enough to pay for itself and more, and it hasn t. He said the point he wants to make is that we had a discussion with a similar facility that people said you can make money on this and it s really going to work out well, and the Township went ahead and did it, and it is not doing that. There was conversation about the mini golf being something that was new and here is Skyline which has been in existence for 30 years, and also the fact that Overlook was renovated and Skyline has probably more families. Commissioner Flanagan said he thinks Skyline should be there and should be renovated but he has misgivings about 14 million dollars to build something he knows will cost us one boatload of money, and he also knows that the reason we own Skyline is because it couldn t make it as a private revenue source. He said you have to understand that as someone who is responsible for the public revenue, we have an obligation to start asking hard questions. Randy said all of those funds would not be coming from the Township; it would be a joint venture between the School District, Lancaster Aquatic Club and the Township. Commissioner Simpson asked if Lancaster Aquatic Club has assets that they could actually bring to this party. Randy said they are primed to launch a capital campaign to raise that money in any event. President Downing asked how many members they have. Randy said they have 140 active member families and they currently swim at Golden Meadows. Commissioner Keebler said we have two issues at hand here: the Skyline Pool matter and the indoor aquatic center, and it s her understanding that the Pool Committee would like to address these items separately, so let s talk about Skyline. President Downing asked if it is off the table that the Skyline Pool could become a new pool at the School property. A gentleman in the audience said as far as the vast majority of the Joint Task Force, we agreed that there should be an indoor facility and Skyline. Another gentleman said the longer you take to decide on the aquatic center pool, you re going to have to band-aid Skyline at least one summer and maybe two more, so that they are really separate issues. Commissioner Keebler said there is a concern amongst the Commissioners as to whether the Township can be able to support two outdoor pools and an indoor pool. She said she heard Mike say he s okay with renovating Skyline and also Larry, so could we just put the Skyline matter to bed and give them the okay on renovating Skyline? President Downing said he is in agreement to do that next year and when he saw the wish list there, it s a lot broader than he thought it Page 10 of 38

11 should be, and maybe they should start that now with our staff. Commissioner Keebler asked how much we want to spend for Skyline. A gentleman in the audience said they are separate issues but there is a relationship; if you run to renovate Skyline, he s not sure of the exact length of the pool but it s close to 50 meters now; however, it might not be necessary to do that if we have a decision made to move forward with an indoor aquatic center of 50 meters. Commissioner Keebler asked if the Skyline swimmers would be willing to host their competitions at this indoor facility or would they want to have them at Skyline. A lady in the audience said the summer swim league is strictly outdoor and that s what Overlook and Skyline belong to. Commissioner Casselbury asked if the summer is 50 meters or 25. The lady said it is 25 but the reason they are proposing that is you don t know what the future holds for the Township as far as even if you build an indoor facility at the school, you might want to enclose Skyline or Overlook at some point and if you have a 50 meter pool, you already have a competition pool built there, and the pool s currently just shy of 50 meters. A gentleman said what they were also charged with was looking long term, so they tried to project 30 years down the line. Commissioner Keebler said she would propose to give the Skyline swimmers a budget and tell them this is where we are money wise on Skyline; is it the same as Overlook which would probably be the equitable way to do it, and you guys make the most of what you do. She said those guys use the pool and let them form a group and come up with how they want to do it. She said she would like to get the process moving so we can have Skyline open the beginning of May of President Downing said the budget cycle begins the latter part of this year and if we wait until then, then any design changes for your pool will have to occur the first part of next year, so he thinks it s prudent to really start looking at which changes you want to make at this point. Mr. Martin said they have 5 million dollars for the library, 5 million dollars for this and where are you going to take it? He said you can start looking at anything but maybe there needs to be a needs group to look at this in more detail because right now you don t have an infinite amount of money to all of a sudden start saying here s what we re going to do. He said the comment about a pro forma probably needs to be done rather quickly because if you re going to set aside funds, you also have roads and other things that you need to look at for next year, so it depends on the priority. Commissioner Keebler said we have $17,000 in the budget now to get the specs going and she asked if we can give these guys some kind of parameter on how much we re willing to commit to do Skyline and then let them come up with how they want to do it. Commissioner Simpson said she doesn t think that would work because she doesn t think a citizens group could understand the costs of building a government facility. She said she thinks that if this group wants to come back to the Township with a prioritized list of features they would like to see in the new Skyline pool, then we can start translating that list into dollars, but she doesn t think we can say to you we re spending 2 million dollars on Overlook and you ve got 2 million dollars -- go for it. She said she doesn t think they understand prevailing wage and some of the Page 11 of 38

12 processes. Commissioner Keebler said they could work with staff. A lady in the audience said they just want to maximize the dollars that they give them to get the most. Commissioner Keebler said that s her point; she goes to the pool everyday in the summertime and she knows what she would like to see in the pool but she is one person and she would like to see the people who are actually using the pool, swim team people as well as people like her, involved in the process with Sean and staff, and getting the specs and deciding what we want; but within a budget; it s all about how much we re spending; and you guys decide what you want in, what you don t want in, what you re willing to forego. Commissioner Simpson said she thinks they need to prioritize what they want, and then we have to decide the budget. Commissioner Flanagan said Overlook is probably going to come in at under 1.8 million and they could use that figure. President Downing asked if they had looked at building some of this in stages or is it the whole thing, all 14 million dollars. The gentlemen in the audience said it would be all at once. Commissioner Flanagan asked how much the Lancaster Aquatic Club is good for. Randy said 2 million. Commissioner Keebler asked if anyone has comments on the outdoor before we move on to the indoor. Christine said she was on the Pool Committee and did a lot of research into renovations of existing municipal pools, and it seemed like the typical costs were between 1.8 to 2.4 million. She said she thinks we re doing it backwards if we set a price and then say we have to fall within this. She said Skyline is a different pool than Overlook; it has some different needs; we didn t have a parking issue at Overlook but we do have one at Skyline. She said a couple of things that they talked about on their committee that they thought would be good to do would be first of all, to have some community input into what those needs should be; actually have two or three community meetings for people to speak up, and then you would have the community support of what you re spending the money on. She said just to name a figure and then work from that figure backwards, it s just a different pool than Overlook. She said they learned that the pools of today are not just the rectangle in the ground of 25 or 30 years ago and that in order for them to be successful and to generate income, you really do need a certain number of amenities; if you choose not to put those in and you really strip it down, then you will not be able to support it financially; whereas the pools that renovated and did it right, many of them saw their revenue triple the year after they built the new pools, so there is a lot of money to be made. She said she looked at our figures for Skyline for the last year and she thinks we have lost $20,000 in operating costs, not capital improvements; but the thing is other than those big capital improvements which if we built a new pool, we re not going to have those; it s just going to be your average maintenance and small repair stuff, but it should be able to not only sustain itself but really make some money; and the thing is people aren t just going to come to a pool that is just your old basic hole in the ground with crummy restaurants; we need to do more of a state of the art renovation. She said that one way to go about this process would be to bring in someone who designs and consults on pools, not a pool builder, but someone who strictly does the design and consulting stage to Page 12 of 38

13 guide us through that process as to what we should and should not be doing, and then let that and the community input develop the price tag as opposed to working from a price tag backwards and maybe putting things that either aren t necessary or are overkill. She said there is a process that we should go through but what our committee discussed was having several community meetings on it from the constituencies that use that pool to develop our wants and needs and here is what we have to have, here s what we would like to have, and perhaps work with a pool consultant who really understands the product and what s been successful at other pools; because if you start throwing dollars out and you say we re going to spend 1.8 or 2.2 or whatever, it may not do the job for you; you might spend it on the wrong things. Commissioner Flanagan said he heard a desire for more parking at Skyline and he asked physically where that would be. Christine said you would probably have to tear down the pool houses that are there now and put them on the backside of the pool to create more parking on the front, and if you renovate this pool and you do it properly, you will absolutely need more parking and if you don t put more parking in, you re going to have a serious problem where you are going to be turning away people that want to come and spend money at your pool, because it s really functionally obsolete in terms of the parking. Commissioner Flanagan said with the aquatic center we are in a problem because we don t have enough fields for all the sports going on, and he asked if the aquatic center will take any space that is currently a field. Christine said she can t answer that question, although she doesn t think that it would; she was more working on the renovation issues. Commissioner Simpson said there are four fields back there and two of them are going to be gone for the 5 th -6 th grade building and park now. She said their field assumption was that there will be two fields in the back 40 that once the 5 th -6 th grade building is in and you can get to it and park, that they could be used for youth sports. Commissioner Flanagan asked if someone has actually etched out a footprint with the 5 th -6 th grade building there to show that of the four fields, we will still have two remaining after all those things are built. Commissioner Keebler said she is concerned because they do have a limited amount of resources and she wants to make sure Skyline gets renovated, and she knows we can spend lots of money and do lots of different things, but she doesn t want it to get too extravagant and then we get sticker shock; and that s why we need to have a budget parameter so we know where our end is. She said they went through this whole thing with the community center, but what happened was we came up with a very elaborate plan for 30 million dollars and we couldn t afford it, so the best way to get things done is really to have a budget and work within those parameters because when it s all said and done, she would like to see a new pool at Skyline. President Downing hoped they could prioritize their list of wants using their members and engaging the membership or the users of the pool, and we will provide some staff assistance there. A gentleman in the audience suggested doing the same thing they did at Overlook since they were happy with that. Commissioner Casselbury said they are looking Page 13 of 38

14 for more input just to make sure they are covering all their bases. Commissioner Keebler said they told her it was 1.5 million and there would be a two-story water slide, and she was sold. She said maybe they don t necessarily need to do the exact same thing at Skyline, but she would like to see some of the similar amenities. Mr. John Hurst said during the presentation, the comment was made that the renovation at Skyline would bring it up to the ADA standards, and he is assuming at this point that the pool does not meet ADA standards and, therefore, has anybody looked at why building issues Mr. Martin said they look at it all the time and because of the age of it and if it s zero entrance and we do have ADA capable because there s a lift to pick the person up and put him in the pool, and that s what we have to do. Mr. Martin said that s at Overlook. Mr. Jim Wilson, 2286 Bassett Drive, said he appreciated Mr. Flanagan s comments, being a business person, working within a budget is a very important thing to do, and he appreciated the comments from the gentleman that if you re going to get some committee work done and talk about things, there are a couple other things that probably should be considered. He said when their expert thought about what they were going to do at Overlook, there were several things that were already in place that are not in place at Skyline; the parking had already been renovated and expanded due to the expansion of the campus in general, so the cost to expand the parking should probably not be part of the cost to renovate the Skyline pool; in other words, they weren t part of renovating the Overlook property because the parking already existed due to another project. He said this needs to be a much broader review of the past to see what kind of an environment you actually need to make your budgetary comments and where you generate your number from. Commissioner Flanagan said what he would like to see, although he is sure this is going to be completely unacceptable, is now that we built a different facility at Overlook which is an entirely different facility, he would like to have a couple of years to see how that works out and what maybe we could have done better before we actually do the Skyline pool. A gentleman in the audience said as a person who went to all of these meetings, these folks did a lot of work and met regularly, one of the things that he thinks is probably not really in this conversation so far is the fact over the long haul, you need to have swimming facilities that do in effect have the capability of being used year round, and that s probably where the revenue generation concern isn t being met by a pool that s used some shorter number of weeks out of the year; that conversation came up a lot. He said that doesn t mean that you don t need to have outdoor facilities, it means that it s part of the liability that we have to our community to provide that as well as an indoor facility. He said he sees what Commissioner Flanagan is saying in that he would like to see how Overlook goes, if it had a roof over it, he suspects that the two or three year plan would look totally different, but it s going to be used as a ten week outdoor facility. He said he thinks that s good and they are going to see some numbers and some return on the investment, but do I think that it s going to make it a big gee whiz golly moneymaker because you ve got a couple of extra slides and a Page 14 of 38

15 handicapped elevator to let a few dozen people into the pool -- no. He thinks if they had put a roof over it and were operating at 12 months out of the year, you absolutely beyond the shadow of a doubt would see more income coming into it. He said yes, they are probably right that a number of people in the room would be upset with the idea of waiting two to three more years, but again it s not as much about whether or not it should be a 10 week pool outdoors; he for one as a community member would be glad to see a small increase in his taxes because it s something that he wants in his community, just like he wants to have a library, a dog park, a miniature golf course. He said if they open it up and let the process go through the motions and whatnot, he thinks we should review the past as said and take a strong look at what we really owe ourselves in the community and not get set up on what we re going to do in the next two to three years, because this group didn t work on a two to three year program -- they worked on a 30 year program. Mr. Dennis Kopecky, Murry Hill Drive, asked where we draw the line between providing facilities for the people in the Township and the children such as swimming and actually getting into the business of swimming, by running the business; and this is kind of what he s hearing. This is turning more into a business than just providing swim facilities, and along with that, he would say that if this group wasn t happy with the amount of funding that you were willing to give them, that they should take their business plan private, go out into the private sector, and raise the additional money that they feel they might need to make this facility whatever it is. He said the figures he s hearing sound like an awful lot of money and he doesn t think the money is there in the budget to do that. Commissioner Flanagan said they have never done anything in this municipality that he can think of in the recreational field that actually makes us money and that means pay operating costs and pay capital, so going into this thinking that we are going to make money or even break even is not a realistic assumption. We don t make money on the golf course; we have to pay tax dollars for that capital; we don t make money on the pools; we have to pay capital costs for that and that comes out of tax dollars; we haven t made money on the mini golf course. Commissioner Simpson said our intent with most of our recreation programs is not to make money; it s to provide amenities for our residents; and our golf course actually is going to make money in two years but we never went into the golf business to make money, but it is run very professionally. Mr. Martin said in their proposal, they don t have the debt service in there or fringes and if you add that in there, which we have been attacked on, are you going to make money -- not at that point. Commissioner Flanagan said he thinks the answer to his question is this: with this governing body, it would be naïve to think that we re going to make money or break even in building something like this; but as a municipality, we do provide recreational facilities for a host of people across a host of lives, the athletic fields, the golfers and on and on, and we don t actually make money on them; it s just a question of can we get enough resources from other places and enough income from users that the subsidy that we have to put in there as a municipality in the Page 15 of 38